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1. She chose her first husband for his cheekbones

In her younger days, Philippa says that when it came to love, “I don’t think I gave it much attention. Then, as I was growing up, I definitely got very confused between lust and love. I chose my first husband on the strength of his cheekbones, which were gorgeous… That was a mistake, because what we didn’t have was a shared sense of reality.”

Rylan and Philippa Perry in the studio

If you’re having intermittent or no sex but you have affectionate touch, that’s a good indicator.

Philippa on the importance of being affectionate

She says, ideally you’ll choose someone for more than bone structure: “Your world view, your general philosophy of life; it’s really good if that corresponds with your partner’s… You don't choose a partner on shared hobbies or shared interests… But it's shared reality that really matters.”

2. She fell for Grayson Perry when he helped her with some spilt coffee

When Philippa met Grayson Perry, long before he was one of the UK’s most renowned artists, she had little interest. They were in the same creative writing class about 37 years ago. “I’m looking at all the other guys in the class and I think, ‘Hm, he’s the last one I’m going out for a drink with.’ Anyway, I went out for a drink with all the others, so I thought, ‘Well, Grayson then.’” She says they “weren’t perfect for each other to start with”, but they had a shared sense of humour.

There was a single moment she realised she loved him, and that she’d be looking at love in the wrong way. While bringing a tray of coffee upstairs, she tripped, spilling everything. “[Grayson] came downstairs and said, ‘Oh my god, you poor thing! Let me help.’ It hit me like a bullet. I’d always heard, ‘Oh god, you’re so clumsy… What’s wrong with you?’… To have somebody not blaming me, I thought, ‘Oh, this is alright. This is the route I want to go now. It’s OK if people are kind to me. I can deserve that.’”

3. Affectionate touch is more important than sex

When Rylan asks if sex is essential in a long-term relationship, Philippa says, “It’s not crucial for a long, healthy relationship, but touch is… There’s research done on this, by the John Gottman Institute. They found that couples that have a lot of sex are no more likely to last than couples who have no or infrequent sex, but what does make a difference is affectionate touch. If you’re having loads of sex but no affectionate touch, that’s not a good indicator for your relationship… If you’re having intermittent or no sex but you have affectionate touch, that’s a good indicator.”

4. Your blueprint for relationships is set very early

There are many different ways of approaching relationships and those are formed very early in life. Philippa explains: “The relationship you have with your father, with your mother, with your siblings, those relationships are your entire world when you’re forming your personality. From nought to three especially. So they become your blueprint for how relationships are done… You take that blueprint to school, at five or whatever, and you apply that to other relationships. You start to form your bonding style, your friendship style, your attachment style. Whether you react against the parental or familial influence or you act with it, it’s still the influence.”

5. You won’t find the ‘perfect’ partner, but you might find someone in the right ballpark

Rylan is fed up with dating apps. Philippa says that’s not unusual and people looking for love should try to alter how they view the ‘perfect’ partner. “People are treating finding either a hookup or a partner like shopping,” she says. “That is not how people form relationships… There isn’t a perfect person right off the shelf. They don’t exist. What there is, is good raw material. What there is, is someone in the ballpark.”

Philippa Perry in the How to Be in Love studio

She adds that, “Mr. Right isn’t there. You make Mr. Right and Mr. Right makes you Mr. Right by your commitment to each other, because you’re in the ballpark and you can bounce off each other.”

6. Losing someone you love is really losing part of yourself

Philippa says she and Grayson are so bonded that, “if he wasn’t there, I feel like I’m missing a limb.” She means that almost literally. She says part of the reason we feel so awful when we lose someone we love, in whatever circumstance, is because “we like the person we are when we’re with them. We like how we feel when we’re with them. Were they to go away or sadly die, what would happen is I would lose that part of me that I am when I’m with him… That’s what love is and also that’s why love hurts. You are literally ripped apart when you lose that person. And that is the price you pay for love.”

7. She and her husband take separate holidays

After decades together, Philippa and Grayson have learned a lot about each other. She says “I don’t think I could manage without him at the end of the day for the day’s debrief.” But she knows she prefers to holiday without him.

“[We have] separate holidays… because he likes cycling across Spain in the heat. Forget that. I like going to Mexico for a psychology conference. I like lying in the sun, reading novels. He has to be on the go… I don’t think you have to do everything together.”