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25th March 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 153

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, and thank you for downloading the podcast. How are you? Are you well? Do you appreciate a chat? Well, Transport for London have had this project where they’ve been encouraging people to talk to strangers on public transport to help their mental health, so earlier I went out with a microphone and a list of the conversation starters they suggest and I chatted with some passengers. Here’s what happened:

[Train noise] I’m on the Victoria Line on the London Underground, and I’m about to conduct a little bit of an experiment based on something that Transport for London have been doing on their Cable Cars. I’ll tell you more about the why of this later on, but for now I’m going to go and chat to some random people on a Tube train. Wish me luck.

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, I’m Emma, I’m from the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½. Is it okay to have a little chat?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Go for it. I’ve got to get off in a couple of stops.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s all right. What are you up to today?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m just on my way back from a meeting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you do anything interesting?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, not really, it was just a meeting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah. And did you have a nice weekend?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, very nice thank you. I didn’t do a lot.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, they’re the best weekends I think.

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What kinds of things make you happy? What makes you smile?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The cinema.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really? What’s the most recent film you saw?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I went to see the new Bridget Jones in the cinema, and it was almost as good as the first one. It’s just a little bit of escapism I think. It brings me more happiness than watching the news.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’ll bet. And what is your favourite song? That’s a really weird question, but what’s your favourite song?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that probably changes day by day, but I’m going to go with today Supertramp Breakfast in America.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh lovely. Thank you for talking to me.

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No worries, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s your name?

ESME-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Esme.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Esme, thank you. I’m from the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½. Is it okay to have a little chat?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Uh…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A mini chat.Ìý It’s about nothing important or complicated or anything, it’s just a normal chat.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Uh, uh, I’m not speak English very well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You don’t speak English, that’s okay. Where are you from?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m from Pakistan.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Pakistan. Do you live here?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I live here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What do you do here?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m a student.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What are you studying?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m in business management.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow, good. Do you like it?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’m liking it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What makes you happy?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Huh?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What makes you smile?

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Music?

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You will hear more about why I was chatting to strangers on the Tube later on. On with the show.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½â€™s weekly disability and mental health podcast. I suspect you’re going to want to contact us about some of the stuff we’re talking about today, and you can absolutely do that. I love to get your messages. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can send us a WhatsApp, a voice message or a text message to 0330 123 9480. If you’re listening on 5 Live and if you like what you hear you can subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds. Hit that big button and you’ll get us on your device every week without doing a thing. Later in this episode I’ll be talking about the mental health bill which is due to become law later this year, and I’ll be speaking to Nigel who lives with paranoid schizophrenia about how one aspect might change the care he receives.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But first, there has been loads happening in parliament around disability recently, including the Transport Select Committee’s report which described the experience of disabled people on public transport as a national embarrassment. We’re going to be talking about that a bit more with our transport correspondent, Sean Dilley, in a bit. And obviously the other big story, which I’m sure you know about, were the wide-ranging changes to the disability benefit system which were announced by Liz Kendall, the work and pensions secretary. We did talk about quite a lot of them on last week’s episode, but one aspect of the changes which we didn’t get to last week was the proposed reform of the Access to Work scheme. Now, Access to Work is a government scheme designed to meet the extra costs that disabled people face when they’re in a job. So, in the green paper that’s just been released with all the changes there are some questions about how Access to Work might be reformed in the future, because the government says that it is overloaded and too expensive. So, here to talk about Access to Work with me is the person that I like to call the disability employment guru, Angela Matthews, director of public policy and research at the Business Disability Forum, which is an organisation that works with businesses to help them to employ more disabled people. Hi Angela.

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, Emma, nice to see you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, not at all. Have you had quite a busy week?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, trying to keep up.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And obviously we talked about Personal Independence Payments last week, and one of the things that has been talked about a little bit less is the Access to Work scheme and changes that might happen to that. Let’s deal with that now, and let’s start with the basics: what is Access to Work?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access to Work is a scheme for disabled people who are in work or who have secured an interview. The role of it is to help pay for the additional costs of workplace adjustments that the employer can’t afford to cover.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, let’s go back a bit and talk a bit about the history of the scheme, because it’s been around since 1994.

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý 1994, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s happened to it in that time?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s really interesting because I used to be a HR advisor and used to use Access to Work for the disabled employees I was working with. And it really was the difference between them being in work and not. So, at BDF we love Access to Work, we still think it’s the right model. The paper wonders if it is the right model still and it says because it has been going for so long and it hasn’t changed. And I do think there’s a part of me which says well actually, have the barriers of disabled people trying to get a job changed, i.e. we’re still not getting the adjustments we need.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, why reinvent the wheel when things haven’t changed for disabled people?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, 100%. And I think the model of Access to Work is right; I think the use of it does need challenging. It is very expensive, it is costing a lot more year on year, and there is a huge backlog, Emma. The last figures I heard around sort of 60,000 people in the waiting queue waiting for an Access to Work assessment.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s an enormous number of people. And I’ve heard that it’s nine months some people have been waiting as well.

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so our members are currently telling us it’s between six and 12 months between one of their disabled employees applying for Access to Work, and hearing back about the assessment. Now, if you think you and me in work without our adjustments for that length of time what could we do. It’s a huge waste of the amazing things we can do, and lots of people are sitting around just waiting for adjustments. It’s just not fair as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what is the government’s vision for reforming it then?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, in the paper they haven’t set out a vision or a proposal. They’ve asked some very broad questions. So, the term that appears is they want to look at the role and the function of Access to Work. There’s a couple of things they are asking in terms of consultation questions. They are looking at whether the balance is right between providing support for disabled people who are in work and disabled people getting into work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, they want to separate that out?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. I think that is because there is this discussion in the paper about should employers be doing more before they refer into Access to Work. So, for very large employers with big profit margins should they be paying for more, should the threshold be higher for them to do more internally for their staff before they refer to a public fund of money.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý From your perspective what does that mean for disabled people getting into a job?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At the moment the disabled employee themselves own the process and they drive the Access to Work application process. Now, at the moment if the disabled employee is still driving that they’re in this sort of six to nine-month waiting list for Access to Work. Then they get to the queue, Access to Work answer, sorry, your employer should be doing more, go back to them. So, that’s not going to work. What needs to happen is perhaps the whole process needs to be more employer led with the involvement of the disabled employee. So, one of the questions they ask in the paper is should employers be driving the process, or should we be giving disabled individuals the budget so that they can buy the whole thing. I think there is a question there of with all the stuff we have to deal with as disabled people in our lives should we really be making our own workplace adjustments as well. We’re going to be consulting with our members and our disabled employee forum to help respond to this, but it shouldn’t be down to the disabled employee. But disabled employees are saying if our employers are not going to make the adjustment we’ll do it ourselves. And disabled employees also told me that to do that they are using their PIP to buy their workplace adjustments.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I do want to ask you though also, you say you deal with people who are already in work, but you must be quite interested in this right to try idea?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. So, the idea of not losing your benefits while you try work in principle I think that’s a good idea. A lot of disabled employees who weren’t in work and now they work in our member organisations said they think that could have helped them. I think there are some things that need to be fleshed out a bit, Emma. For example, who decides if that trying is successful? How is the individual involved in that success criteria? Does the individual get a say in actually yeah, I did it, but I’m in pain, I’m tired, I couldn’t do anything else with my weekend because I was recovering? So, what are the metrics of success with that? And how long can someone try for?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There’s so much to think about. In terms of Access to Work and the questions in the consultation is there a timeframe on that at all?

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The consultation ends 25th June. We’ve then got recess, it’ll be the summer. The government will probably be analysing the consultation feedback in the autumn. So, we are expecting to hear back on all of this at the end of the calendar year.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Angela Matthews, employment guru from Business Disability Forum, thank you so much.

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There has been yet another big story this week in the news which has come from parliament about disability. With me is the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½â€™s transport correspondent, Sean Dilley. Hi, Sean.

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s great to be here, Emma. And what a lovely studio you’ve got. I’m sitting on a sofa. This is awesome. You don’t get that on the Today programme.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you not?

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You don’t.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is it a swivel chair?

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s a swivel chair with wires everywhere. This is just so much more welcoming. Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, now that we’ve dealt with the sofa conversation, Sean’s here to talk about the Transport Select Committee’s report on access to transport for disabled people. They described the experiences of disabled people on public transport as a national embarrassment. I mean, the report is called Access Denied, so that probably tells you quite a lot about what’s in it. But let’s really find out what it says. Sean, what did the report contain?

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The problem with the issue of accessibility and transport on all methods is it’s actually a massive missing data story. I’ve investigated this in some depth for the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ recently and, this is the point actually identified by the Transport Select Committee, is an awful lot of what we hear in the media is anecdotal stories, like Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson having to crawl off a train at Kings Cross, or I had an incident where I was screamed at for, quote unquote, shouldn’t travel alone with a disability, I was told by a member of train staff. There are so many of these anecdotal stories; what’s missing is the raw data. Now, the Transport Select Committee, both in this parliament and the parliament before the election had started this, had spoken to 825 disabled people and people who travel with them, and they found that 67%, so nearly seven in ten, either had difficulties travelling every time or most of the time they travelled. Around half of people said they at least once a month don’t travel because they just can’t put up with the stress involved. Emma, it really is a very unhappy experience for many.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve had a look through the report, it’s very long and it has a lot of anecdotal stories and different kinds of surveys that were carried out by various organisations over the years and different work that’s been done. But what is the recommendation from the report? What were they suggestingÌý happened next?

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, there were 29 all told, but it was 107 pages to be precise. The key ones: that there should be a unified body to investigate complaints across all modes of transport, so whether that’s an assistance dog user the report identified who had been refused access to a cab, or a wheelchair user who’s had difficulty accessing train services or bus, there should be one single place for people to go to. One point we should notice, this report, the parliament’s transport committee it scrutinises the government and the Department of Transport, so they only make policy in England. However, the committee chair, Ruth Cadbury, was telling me that okay, while we’re England only, one of the other recommendations is that the government should look at legislation to see whether it’s robust enough, and that could expand beyond England into other countries, namely though the equality act 2010. Many people arguing to the committee in their evidence that it’s a bit of a toothless tiger, and it’s up to individual people to take action on. So, the committee wants to see real teeth given to any unified body so that they can address concerns head on. They want accessibility and inclusion in travel not to be treated as a nice to have but as a basic human right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And they also want a strategy, they want the government to produce a strategy.

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What do they want that to say? And will it actually happen? And how long will it take?

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, they’re saying to the government, here’s a blank canvas, you decide. But what they’ve said is they want within the next 12 months for the government to say what they plan to do in terms of strategy for transport all told. They want a separate strategy for rail where they recognise there are unique challenges. And they want that to set out a very clear timeline for what they’re going to do to improve things. What the Department for Transport tell me is they acknowledge disabled people are getting a rough ride, but ultimately they say this is a core priority for them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You wrote about this for the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website, you’ve reported on it on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Breakfast and ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News. And often the Select Committee reports don’t get a huge amount of notice by the public and aren’t really talked about. But have disabled people been feeding back to you about the report and about their own experiences? What have they been telling you?

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we get contacts through the website, but in this case people have been stopping me as I’ve been travelling about with my guide dog. An awful lot of people have said either their personal stories or they say, oh I had issues because my gran couldn’t travel, or my friend’s son is disabled. So, it’s really woken the debate up. I think the reason it’s really easy to ignore the problem is it’s very difficult to understand unless you’ve got experience. But one in four of the population, or one in five of the working age population if you prefer, are disabled, and that disability just doesn’t impact them I think. I went out for a bit of breakfast before popping in today and my girlfriend was having to guide me about the place, park, find somewhere where my guide dog can move about. So, the impact on travel for disabled people isn’t just on the individuals, it’s on people who travel with us, our friends, our family, and of course sometimes on the pressured train staff.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Sean Dilley, ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ transport correspondent, thank you very much.

SEAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At the start of the year Access All looked ahead to what the big stories of 2025 might be. One of those was the new mental health bill, which is due to come into law later this year. The changes proposed include people who are receiving treatment for mental health issues having the option to choose a family member or a friend to be their nominated person to help them navigate the system as part of a more person-centred approach. We’re going to look at how this might affect the care of someone who has paranoid schizophrenia when I speak to Nigel shortly. But with me now is Lucy Schonegevel, and she is the director of policy and practice at the charity Rethink. Hi, Lucy.Ìý

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, how are you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m really well thank you, and thank you for joining me. Let’s go back to basics first, Lucy. What is the mental health act and the mental health bill?

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the mental health act has been around for 40 years. It essentially sets out people’s rights and what shouldÌý happen when someone needs to be detained under the mental health act, another word for it is sectioned, which means essentially being taken into hospital and treated in an inpatient facility or even a secure facility, receiving medication, meeting with psychiatrists and nurses, receiving therapies in order to support someone to then recover and get better. And the mental health bill is updating this act, so there is a bill going through parliament at the moment which sets out a number of different changes and reforms that would really bring this act into the 21st century and ensure that people are treated with dignity and respect and treated significantly better than the current mental health act sets out for people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, because we’re going to hear Nigel’s story in a minute. I was just wondering how the changes and how the mental health bill might actually help with Nigel’s treatment and the treatment of people who have conditions like paranoid schizophrenia.

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The bill doesn’t necessarily mention any specific conditions like paranoid schizophrenia, but we know that people with paranoid schizophrenia need greater choice and autonomy. And really under the current system they’re often denied a say in their treatment, decisions are made on their behalf. And what we hope will happen with the reform is that individual’s voices are heard and respected more, and they’re given many more opportunities to really shape their own care plans, ensuring appropriate safeguards are obviously in place, but also bring in the right people to support them in doing that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, Lucy, it’s time now to hear from Nigel who lives with paranoid schizophrenia and has an amazing story to tell. He’s lived an incredible life, and I got to speak to him and his friend, Andy. This bit contains conversations around mental health and paranoia, so if that’s not something you feel you can listen to right now skip forward about 12 minutes or so.

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My day’s going okay. I’ve walked the dogs. They’re not my dogs; I’m looking after some dogs for some people. I like getting out into the park. But when I do go out I’m paranoid you see of other people. That’s my illness, I suffer from paranoid schizophrenia and emotional unstable personality disorder with anxiety and depression as well, so I have a lot to deal with day in, day out. But I’ve noticed when I take the dog for a walk I’m more relaxed than anything. The dog really helps to calm me down because I’m taking more care and notice of the dog than my own thoughts.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nigel, can we talk a little bit about the paranoid schizophrenia? What is it and how does that affect you?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s paranoia to the max. Basically when you go out for a meal at the pub and you’re convinced either someone’s poisoned your meal or your drink or they’ve put something in your drink that several days later you’re going to feel something that’s going to go off bad in you, like something’s going to go wrong inside of you. When you’re walking down the road you’re constantly looking behind you because you think someone’s going to attack you from behind. You’re constantly fearing open spaces, or people in large crowds that someone’s going to stab you. So, it’s constant, it’s constant paranoia.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you cope with that? That sounds really, really stressful and frightening all of the time.

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I say, ‘Jesus you are with me in this, you know what I mean, I have no right to fear because I believe in you’. Going to church every Sunday really helps me, because I’ve had a real change of lives, I’ve come from prison, drink, drugs, nicotine, self-harm, and all of that’s got rid of by Jesus.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It sounds like you have a really good community there with your faith.

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You talked about earlier in your life and all the things you’ve been through. You’ve been sectioned a few times through mental health, haven’t you? Do you remember those times?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, they were horrible times, horrendous. It’s when I came off my medication. Basically every time I’ve come off my injection or my tablets I’ve gone downhill fast. I’ve had four major breakdowns where I’ve nearly lost my life on several occasions from two stab wounds to my stomach. I’ve got over 60 scars on my body.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nigel, that’s very hard to hear. It’s hard to hear that those things have happened to you. When you were in the secure hospitals what was the atmosphere like there?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When I went into the hospital first they were shouting, screaming, people banging their heads against walls. But I felt like there was a great group of people that stuck up for one another and came together as one another; and that’s not just staff, that’s just patients. People helped you out with cigarettes or they helped you out with drinks or food or chocolate biscuits or chocolate bars, or they would swap clothes, especially women, they would swap clothes with each other. And it would be a place where if someone was feeling down the other people would come around them, even though they didn’t have faith, they would still come round them and speak into their lives and speak positivity into the person’s life that was feeling low and tell them not to do anything daft.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That sounds amazing. How did you support people in thoseÌý hospitals? What did you do?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, when I got well in my last stay in hospital when I had a breakdown, I set up a music group where I went down to the shops with a worker and I bought chocolate biscuits, nuts, pop, crisps, everything. I did this on my own money, I took it back to the hospital, I got it in bowls, made sandwiches, laid it all out there in front of the big telly and put music videos on, and people would dance to it and have, like, a party. So, it would get them out of the hospital feeling of being in hospital but not being in hospital, being in a place where they could relax to the music and have a great time. And I used to do that with another group as well, and the staff actually complimented me on what I was doing because they couldn’t do what I was doing, and I was the one what was ill.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because obviously people in those hospitals have paranoid schizophrenia and other mental health conditions like yourself, were you and the other patients able to get along okay or were there sometimes times when there were problems and issues?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I did have a few fights with people in the secure hospitals, and I didn’t like it. They always caused the problems, they always tried to attack me. I got attacked about three or four times when I was in a secure unit, and it’s hard to deal with because you don’t want to hurt the person because they’re ill.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How did the staff treat you, not just in that last stay, but over the various stays you’ve had in hospital?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, basically the last stay I had in hospital the staff were winding me up. They were making out that things were going to happen to me when there was no threat or danger towards my life, they were playing games with me. They thought it was funny.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It must be hard when you do feel paranoid a lot of the time, it must be hard to know when things are as people say they are and when it’s your illness telling you things in your head as well.

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I used to hear severe voices that tormented me from day in, day out. I used to believe I was on cameras and bugs in prison and in hospitals, and even in hotel rooms. Andy was a great support to me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can we introduce your friend, Andy, because he’s here as well, he’s on the line?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, he is. He’s a good bloke.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, Andy.

ANDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re Nigel’s friend, Andy, and you wrote a book about Nigel’s life, From Darkness Into Light. How did you two get to know each other?

ANDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we have a mutual friend and that friend told Nigel I was his postman, which I were. And one day he stopped me on the street and introduced himself to me and we had a chat. And then the mutual friend who I used to attend church with brought him down to our church, and he started to come along and we soon became friends.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lovely. And what is it about each other that you like? What’s the friendship built on?

ANDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t think you can meet Nigel and not like him, he’s just so lovable. Even though he’s got that hard exterior to look at him, he looks quite intimidating, but he’s got a heart of gold.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s lovely to hear, isn’t it, Nigel?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

ANDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He really wants to love and help other people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And Nigel, what is it about Andy that makes it such a great friendship?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we go out playing snooker together, we go out for meals together. When I’ve finished my day and I’ve had a hard day I ring Andy up and he’s always supportive at the other end of the phone, he prays for me, he talks sense into me. When I’ve been paranoid he’s said, Nigel this is not really happening. I just couldn’t do life without Andy.

ANDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it’s not all one-way traffic that Nigel says because Nigel’s friendship is a wonderful thing and it’s blessed me by knowing him.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think when you’re disabled or have a mental health condition for your friends to say that you’re supporting them too and that you’re bringing a lot to their lives helps you to remember that. I find that as a blind person as well, so it’s really nice to hear you say that, Andy. You guys were friends during COVID which must have been an extraordinarily difficult time, well for both of you, but for Nigel in particular. And then Nigel had to move during COVID and you helped with that Andy, didn’t you?

ANDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think, as Nigel has alluded to it, he’d asked to change his medication which he’d been on for years and years. As his old medication left his body he became severely mentally ill. One morning I woke up to a number of alarming messages on my mobile phone, Nigel said his mobile phone was broke, he couldn’t ring anyone, he could only send messages. And all through the night he’d been sending me messages, please ring the police, people are trying to break in and kill me. When I woke up I went straight to his house, at the bottom of his road was an ambulance parked, but they’d been to Nigel’s house and they were refusing to go in because Nigel had a hammer and a knife and they didn’t feel safe. So, the ambulance staff had rung the police. I managed to get in Nigel’s flat, he let me in, he was in a very agitated, well frankly he was terrified, and I managed to be able to convince him to put the weapons he had down, which were for his self-protection. Five or ten minutes later the police turned up and started to investigate Nigel’s claims thinking they were real, which obviously they weren’t. I managed to have a word with him and the police officers and tell them what was happening and explain Nigel’s illness. Then the ambulance paramedics came in and I spoke with them and asked them to section Nigel. They said they wouldn’t be able to do it without speaking to his mental health team.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On this podcast we’ve been talking about the idea of friends, not just family, becoming the nominated person to support those who are being detained by the mental health act and to help them beforehand and be able to make decisions on their behalf when they’re really, really ill. What do you think of that idea? Nigel, what do you think of it?

NIGEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s a really good idea. I think when you get someone like Andy who you can really trust then it’s workable, it’s doable. I mean, we just need more people like Andy really.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Andy, what about this idea that, if this comes through, a friend, not just a next of kin, a family member, can be in this sort of legal position where they make decisions when someone like Nigel is really poorly?

ANDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I would think that it’s a good idea because, I can’t speak for Nigel and thankfully I’ve never had these mental illnesses, but to have someone that people can trust and rely upon in these situations I would think would be invaluable. Because often families are different, aren’t they, not always do we have our best relationships with families I suppose, especially with people with mental health. So, to have someone you can rely on would be invaluable.

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lucy Schonegevel from Rethink, having listened to Nigel’s story, what’s your reaction to what’s happened to him?

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, first of all I think just what an incredibly powerful story and experience, and what an amazing man Nigel is to have gone through all of that, to be able to talk about it and share his experience. And what I hope will then lead to change and impact and much better experiences for himself in the future, but also for other people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you think that the new law, the mental health bill, will help people like Nigel have a better life experience?

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I really hope so. I think that’s absolutely the intention behind the reforms. One particular example that really springs to mind is, as you say, how Nigel talks about Andy and the fact that he may have wanted to have chosen him as his nominated person had that provision been in the current mental health act. As it stands people who are detained have the person decided for them, and there’s essentially a list that clinicians go down to decide who should be decided for them to be that person that then supports them through their inpatient stay. And for a lot of people that’s not someone who they maybe have a relationship with. For some people that may be someone who has even been a trigger for their mental health as well. So, hearing about Nigel’s story it does really give me hope that that provision would really help him in the future.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, because we knew that Nigel didn’t have a great relationship with his family, so it sounds like it’s a useful thing not having to be the next of kin or a person that you would expect it to be; it can be the person that the person in crisis chooses.

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly. And it will be who the person in crisis chooses alongside what an approved mental health professional thinks as well. So, there are still safeguards around it as well. I think ultimately this really is about making sure that people receive the help and support and they feel safe while they’re going through this really, really scary time, and to be able to choose the right person for them who they know can be their voice when they maybe don’t have one.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lucy Schonegevel from Rethink, thank you for joining me.

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much.

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, I promised you earlier in the programme that we would talk about an experiment that Transport for London ran recently on their Cable Car to get strangers talking to people on public transport. Well, I’m now with Josh Crompton, and he is the head of the Cable Car in London. Hi, Josh.

JOSH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why did Transport for London decide to do this?

JOSH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the chatty cabin concept that we’ve had running throughout February and March is really to target loneliness. And this comes off the back of a report that the mayor’s office produced called Reconceptualising Loneliness in London, where it said 700,000 people or one in 12 Londoners were actually lonely either always or most of the time. So, the chatty cabin concept is trying to target that and actually support people with loneliness and help really just try and get people talking.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And tell me exactly what the concept is and how the experiment went.

JOSH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The concept is we had two cabins especially designed in a kind of vinyl wrap that made them different to the rest of our cabins. And we were trying to create a controlled space where people could come and have conversations. And within each of the cabins we had speech bubbles with different kinds of icebreakers or conversation cues. But generally what we found is when you put people 90m above the Thames with great views actually generally people are open to talking about that first of all. But actually it’s generally just people having conversations.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Josh, what were some of the prompts in those speech bubbles that you had and in the cabins?

JOSH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Some of them were like, ‘What is your favourite song?’ Also some of them were talking about transport, ‘What’s your favourite mode of transport on the TFL network?’

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what was the feedback like from those who took part?

JOSH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really, really positive. Thinking of the different people we had in the Cable Car, we had people like local Londoners but also tourists who came. We spoke to a man from India who had come on holiday on his own. I spoke to a single mum who her husband worked away so she was in her house with her child all day, so she got to go out and actually just have conversations with other people and she found that really refreshing. So, yeah, really, really positive.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are there any plans to do this again?

JOSH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we’re looking at in June for National Loneliness Week bringing back chatty cabins again, but also making it broader, bringing in, say, the London overground trains and Elizabeth Lines, and potentially even buses.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Josh Crompton from Transport for London’s Cable Car, thank you so much for speaking to me on Access All.

JOSH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m off to chat to some more punters on the London Underground. Wish me luck.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can I have a little chat? I’m from the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½, but it’s not about anything politics or anything.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve just been talking to this lady, and do you know what we’ve been talking about?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s that?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý About the level of noise. Actually everybody has their music on loud, they’re having really loud conversations, and sometimes it’s really nice just to sit quietly and contemplate. And this lady has just said to me she finds it really stressful travelling now because of the level of noise.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s your name?

BEATRICE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My name’s Beatrice. It is very lonely, especially when you’re homeless. And I’m selling magazines so I can put a roof over my head.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When you’re on the train selling your magazines do people talk toÌý you?

BEATRICE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They just ignore you. There may be one or two that will talk to you, but apart from that they ignore you, like they don’t acknowledge you, like you’re not there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s your name?

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My name is Seth. I’m a chef.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, what kind of food do you cook?

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Japanese.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing.

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, making sushi and stuff.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What makes you happy, Seth?

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cooking, being with my family and cooking.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s your favourite thing to cook?

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It depends. I like cooking a lot of different things.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Different things?

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Japanese food mostly?

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Japanese, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for talking to me.

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No problem. Sorry about that, my love, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Enjoy the rest of your day.

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You too, my love.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s all right.

SETH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have a nice one.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You too. Bye.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well there you go, that was me speaking to strangers on London public transport. And I will leave it up to you as to whether you think my little experiment worked. But what I do know is trying to have a chat on the Victoria Line is a very, very noisy experience. That is it for this episode. Thank you so much to all of my guests. What a jampacked episode it has been. And thanks to you for listening. You can get in touch with me, send me an email accessall@bbc.co.uk. Send me a message on WhatsApp 0330 123 9480. And we are on social media, we’re on X and Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. Catch you soon, bye.

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