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13th May 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 159

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The top that I’m wearing today has kind of a rough texture and it’s kind of itchy to wear but I really like the design. We’ve had some emails into the podcast saying that sometimes we can be a little bit negative and the stories we do are a little bit negative, so we’ve started putting really, really positive stories at the beginning of the show. I love me, top banana solution, and Amelie here has plenty where that came from. Tell me about your business.

AMELIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, my business is Cyber Cherry Clothes, and it is a sustainable fashion business, regardless of possibly having any sort of disability, as I myself am autistic.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you’re autistic, so what does that mean for how clothes feel on you and what you need to do to clothes so that you can wear them comfortably?

AMELIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely cutting tags out is a huge thing. I really like when clothes don’t have tags. Layering clothes. And maybe not necessarily wearing the clothes that I would want all the time, but then finding ways, like the layering, to make them nicer to wear.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what other things do you do to clothes for people?

AMELIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve done things like change materials over. So, someone didn’t like metal so I changed that to wood instead, so I use wooden buttons and things like that. I also get asked a lot to add sleeves to things rather than take sleeves away. People like the sleeves, especially the little thumb holes, so they can have something to fiddle with as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And inbuilt fidget toy.

AMELIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes [laughs] pretty much.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love that. And what advice would you have for neurodivergent people starting their own business? Because you work as well in a school so you’re really busy. What kinds of things do you need to think about?

AMELIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely being able to manage your own time. And also being really kind to yourself because some days you’re going to wake up and your brain is going to be loud, and you need to accept that maybe today is not the day you’re going to get something done, but it’s okay, it’s not the end of the world.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It sounds like you put a lot of work in. Do you make a profit?

AMELIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I do make a profit. My best month I made 10 grand in profit, and that was Christmas.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I love that, Amelie. Thank you so much for talking to me.Ìý

AMELIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On with the show!

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the podcast that understands that every story is a disability story. You can tell me your story in all the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or find us on X and Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. We are the weekly disability and mental health podcast from ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News. Later I chat to US folk musician, Gaelynn Lea, and she might even give me a tune on her fiddle.

But first, a growing number of backbench Labour MPs are revolting against the government’s plans to make welfare cuts of £5 billion by 2030. An open letter signed by 42 MPs said planned disability cuts were impossible to support before proper impact assessments were carried out, while new immigration proposals include ending the recruitment of care workers from overseas, and that’s in an industry that has 131,000 vacancies in England. To get to the heart of some of this we have Labour MP for Nottingham East, Nadia Whittome, who was one of the signatories on that open letter, and we have ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ political correspondent, Helen Catt. Hi both.

HELEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nadia, tell me a bit about yourself and your background?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me on. I’m the Labour MP for Nottingham East. I was first elected in 2019. I was the youngest MP at the time, and I’ve just been re-elected in the 2024 election.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You are one of us.

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I am.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You have ADHD, a diagnosis of Crohn’s disease, and you had to take some time off work a couple of years ago with PTSD. How do you manage all of those different aspects of your life in this really intensive job?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sometimes with great difficulty. With any one of those things that makes life more difficult, but sometimes it feels like all of them kind of conspire together to make the job almost impossible. But I’m very lucky that I’ve got a fantastic time, and I just try my best to be patient with myself. But, you know, sometimes we can be our own worst critics.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You, Nadia, have been very vocal about your thoughts on the government’s plans for welfare cuts, which include tightening of PIP eligibility, Personal Independence Payments. How are you feeling at the moment about your party’s plans?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý These cuts are just not something that a Labour government should be doing. It’s not what people voted for when they voted for change. We saw in the local elections just how unpopular these are. We are a party that was founded by working class people for working class people, and that means the whole of the working class, including people who cannot work and including disabled people, many of whom can work and do work, and more could work if proper support was available. These are the biggest disability cuts on record, and I never thought that I would be sitting here saying that as a Labour MP in a Labour government. But there’s no sugar coating it; they are going to plunge hundreds of thousands of people into poverty. The DWP figure estimates that it could be 250,000. But the Joseph Rowntree Foundation analysis says that it could actually be more like 400,000.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A few weeks ago on the podcast we spoke to Minister for Social Security and Disability, Stephen Timms, and here’s what he said about what the government was trying to achieve with the plans:

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, what we’ve set out is a plan to fix a broken system. The key elements of it are firstly, providing proper employment support for people who are out of work on health and disability grounds; support rising to £1 billon a year by the end of the parliament. We know there are lots and lots of people who are not in work at the moment who would like to be and we’d like to give them the support that they need.

Secondly, it’s about removing incentives for inactivity that are in the benefits system at the moment, that have kept economic activity in the UK less than it was before the pandemic. Uniquely amongst the big world economies our employment rate is still less than it was pre-pandemic.

And thirdly, as you say, we will be tightening the eligibility criteria for Personal Independence Payment to make the rapidly rising cost of that benefit more sustainable, and also release funding for employment support.

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Am I able to respond to that?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, please respond.

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The government claim that this is about getting more people into work, I think there are a number of problems with that. Firstly, most of the cuts in the proposals come from PIP which, as you know, is not an out of work benefit; it’s about recognising that being disabled comes with additional costs. It's also the case that cuts to PIP in some cases will force people to give up their jobs.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Secondly, lots of disabled people not in work would love to be in work, and cutting their benefits doesn’t take any of those reasons away; it just pushes them into poverty.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thirdly, even if we had the highest quality employment support there would still be some people for whom work isn’t possible, and they deserve support. And under these proposals they won’t get that support.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nadia, we mentioned that 42 Labour backbenchers signed an open letter criticising the plans. But it’s rumoured actually that 80 or more MPs are going to be rebelling when it comes to the vote. Now, you signed the open letter, but you also wrote a personal letter to Liz Kendall, the Secretary of State, for the Department for Work and Pensions, and you informed her that you would be voting against the government’s plans. But what else did your letter to Liz Kendall say?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I actually wrote to Liz Kendall twice, once before the green paper and again after the green paper. I basically highlighted the already poor state of disabled people’s living standards, the fact that disabled people have borne the brunt of austerity, are disproportionately living in poverty. I asked the government a number of questions about the proposals. So, for example how lifelong conditions not in need of reassessment will be defined; what evidence the government has that cutting PIP will result in more disabled people working. I’m yet to receive a response.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is there anything you like in the government’s plans for welfare reform?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There are a few good things. The £1 billion of employment support is welcome, as is the right to try, which would guarantee that people who move into employment can return to their benefits without needing to be reassessed. But these positives are far outweighed by the negative impacts.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But they’ve said they need to save that money. What other decisions could they make?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My question back to the government would be: why are these difficult decisions always borne by the poorest and most vulnerable people? That’s not fair, it’s not just. We could be making different decisions, like taxing wealth for example. To me it’s common sense; it not only generates income to the government, but it also reduces inequality.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Helen Catt, ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ political correspondent, you have covered lots of rebellions in your time on the job. I mean, Labour have a big majority. Will this actually make any material difference?

HELEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, the thing about rebellions is it’s really hard to gauge how impactful they’re going to be in advance of them actually happening, or even how big they’re going to be. And there’s a lot of reasons for that. Partly it’s because, well some MPs are pretty happy to stand out there and say, absolutely I cannot vote for this; others will be thinking about it more quietly. There’s always an incentive for the people, the rebels if you like, to perhaps suggest a higher number than they have or towards the higher end, the more optimistic end of the number of rebels in the hopes of putting maximum pressure on the government. And then from the government end the whips, who are the MPs who are in charge of making sure that people vote the way the government wants them to, will also be going round all those MPs with doubts one by one and trying to convince them not to rebel. And as you said, this government has a very big majority, a working majority of 165, which would mean that in practice you would need 83 Labour MPs to actively vote against these cuts for it to be defeated. And that would still rely on every other opposition MP also turning up and voting against those cuts as well. So, it’s a pretty big ask.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And the other thing to bear in mind is sometimes MPs who want to rebel don’t want to go quite as far as voting against a measure. Instead they’ll do what’s known as abstaining, which is where they don’t vote. Or in some cases the whips can make arrangements that mean that conveniently an MP who’s minded to vote against doesn’t have to be there on that day.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And how much are MPs talking about this?

HELEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is something that is being talked about, particularly since those local elections that it was seen as a real factor in the losses that Labour suffered were not just the winter fuel allowance from last year, but the cuts to PIP.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. The welfare proposals were made in March. Remind us what’s calendared in?

HELEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is this consultation which anyone can respond to which is open I think until 30th June. And there are a number of in-person events that the government is running that people can go to on that as well. In terms of the parliamentary side of things I don’t think there’s a set date yet for any vote, but the expectation is that it will come up before July when parliament breaks for its summer recess. And then if it were to pass any changes or cuts to PIP aren’t pencilled to happen until November 2026.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And now this week’s story is very much about immigration and Keir Starmer says he wants to cut it significantly through visa changes, and that actually includes not bringing over care workers from abroad. How will this affect disabled people, Helen?

HELEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is an end to the overseas care visa basically, which was introduced under Boris Johnson to bring in care workers; the legislation for that could happen as soon as June. The government argues that there are already enough carers from overseas in the country who aren’t currently in the job that they were brought over for. But their figures are quite different to the figures that the care industry has been putting forward. There are concerns about whether there will be enough staff to keep the care sector running.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nadia, you were a carer during the pandemic. What was your reaction?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was a care worker before I was an MP, and my colleagues were people who were born in this country and people who weren’t, and all of them were outstanding carers. I’m so disappointed. I think it’s just deeply irresponsible when we’ve got a shortage of care workers in this country and the social care system is on its knees, why then are we introducing policies that will tank the social care system even further. I was pretty appalled. Our party exists to serve the interests of the whole of the working class and we should be focusing on actually delivering solutions for people’s real problems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But their solution is to get more UK residents on board with becoming carers. There’s 131,000 vacancies in England alone; they want to fill some of those with people who already live here. Is that not a sensible move?

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There’s no reason why you can’t do both. The reason why people aren’t becoming care workers is not because migrants are coming and filling all those positions; it’s because we have low wages, poor terms and conditions. Those things need to fixed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Helen, let’s just talk about Reform UK. They’ve made some real headway in the council elections recently at both Labour and the Conservative’s expense. This means that Reform UK have a control of the purse strings in some areas. Do we know how disabled people might be impacted by this? I’m thinking about SEND and social care.

HELEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well look, it is really quite tricky to answer that at this stage, because in a lot of the councils where they have won power a lot of those councillors are going to be people who haven’t been councillors. They’re very much going in, looking at the books and how it all works and working out what they’re going to do. The one thing I would say though about services like social care, like SEND provision, they are what are known as statutory services, which means that there’s a certain level of them that has to be provided by law. So, it might be that in those really core services you might not see as much change as you might expect.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right. Thank you, Helen.

HELEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for giving me so much of your energy today, Nadia.

NADIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me and for covering all of this. I’m so glad that the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ has a dedicated podcast.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The vote on Labour’s proposals is expected to happen around mid-June. And if you want to have your say on some of Labour’s planned welfare changes the consultation is open until the end of June.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You are the lifeblood of Access All, yes you are, you the listener. And I really want to hear from you, so tell me what’s going on with you, tell me a question that you need an answer for. You can get in touch with us on email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or send me a voice message on WhatsApp, I do love a voice message, 033 0123 9480. And we might even be able to play it in on the podcast. You might hear your voice on Access All.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now to your feedback. Before the bank holiday weekend I interviewed Jessica Slice. She’s an author who spends a lot of time in bed due to a couple of different conditions:

JESSICA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Almost all of my parenting happens in bed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And she was very relatable to many of you. Rensa said that she absolutely loved the interview and she wanted people to destigmatise looking after your body, because she does a lot of her work from bed as well. Powerchair Queen was listening to the bits about Jessica’s parenting. She’s got two children and she does a lot with them from her bed. She’s got a microwave there, books, all the things she needs to get them fed and entertained. Powerchair Queen is a parent to a daughter; they say that they are absolutely doing the best for their daughter in their situation, and they don’t believe that their daughter is lacking in any way. So, I think lots of parents could relate to Jessica Slice there and her parenting style.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hani from Berlin got in touch and actually Hani, they said that they went to the Global Disability Summit because they heard myself and Paul Carter talking about it:

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The King of Jordan is here; the Deputy Director of the United Nations is here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was in Berlin this year, and it’s where a load of countries, about 160 of them, came together to try and make some commitments to push forward disability inclusion. Hani enjoyed it, loved it actually. And they only became a wheelchair user late last year and they have found the podcast really helpful, which is so good to hear. Hani also wanted to tell us about their podcast where they’ve made a documentary about three LGBT Jewish female artists, fine artists, painters. And at the end of each episode they’ve put a ten to 20-minute visual description of some of the artworks discussed. Now, I have had a 20-second visual description of the Sistine Chapel roof, ceiling, I’ve probably had quite a long description of a starry night, and I have to be honest, Hani, I’m no better off, I don’t really understand it any better. Blind from birth here, no sort of colour knowledge, abstract idea knowledge in terms of art. I know blind people you’re going to get in touch and say, I do, I understand it, I’ve been blind from birth and I love descriptions of paintings. Please tell me. Tell me I’m wrong. Hani, thank you so much for telling me about your podcast Passing the Paintbrush.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you’re making something interesting online, maybe you’ve got an online exhibition, a podcast like Hani, let me know: accessall@bbc.co.uk.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My guest this time is US folk musician, Gaelynn Lea, the violinist and singer who has osteogenesis imperfecta, better known as brittle bones. She wrote the music for Macbeth on Broadway in 2022, which featured Daniel Craig from James Bond fame, and Hollywood actor Ruth Negga, who was Tony nominated for her performance. Six years before that Gaelynn was a music teacher before she won NPR’s Tiny Desk Contest, and then she became a full-time touring musician. Armed with a violin and a loop pedal, she’s been around 43 US states and toured internationally. And now she’s touring the UK, and that’s why she’s here with me for a chat and hopefully a tune.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yes, thanks for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How is the tour going so far?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been so great. I’ve only done two shows so far, Brighton and London. We have eight left on the tour. I haven’t toured really at all since the pandemic. I’ve done lots of one-off shows and shorter runs, but this is my first full tour since the pandemic so it’s been really fun.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I mean, you’ve got your violin in your hands. You will be playing us a bit of a tune later, and we’re all really, really, really looking forward to that. But how would you describe your music? Because I literally can’t; there’s a bit of everything in there.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] yes, I was looking it up the other day and every album has a different genre listed. I play violin, that’s probably one of the most central pieces. I’m heavily influenced by the Celtic tradition I would say.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Excellent.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Although it’s not intentional necessarily; I just really love that music and it creeps in all the time. And then I love lyrics, so they’re folk songs at their heart, even when they’re arranged more like a rock song, they’re really folk tunes in my mind. And just with lyrics that hopefully touch on darkness and light at the same time.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There are instrumentals. I even heard a bit of spoken word in there on one of the tracks.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And there really, really is a bit of everything. Tell me, there’s a reason behind this, give me a visual description of yourself, Gaelynn.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well I am a small white women. I sit in an electric wheelchair. And my arms and legs are shorter, they’re kind of bent from my disability from birth. I have really long dark hair pulled up in a braid. And I’m sitting in an electric wheelchair, travel electric wheelchair.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what’s under the seat at the moment?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I have a cutting board.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A chopping board?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A chopping board, yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Like for chopping your vegetables.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, from a company in Minnesota called Epicurean. It’s black and it’s serving as a surface. This is not my regular wheelchair, so for travelling I use a smaller portable one, and it was something we had to figure out how to play. I hold my violin, that’s an important piece, quite differently. I play, it’s like a tiny cello almost, because my arms are too short to play it up on my shoulder, how you usually play. So, it’s sitting in front of me resting on this cutting board.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And in terms of how you use your hands and your fingers to play is there a difference there as well?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A little bit different, because I only use three of the four fingers to play the notes, and so I move around a little more than you normally would. The thing is once you find a way that works you kind of just learn alongside your peers, and I haven’t really thought much about it since I started when I was ten of how this style is so different, even though it is quite different really.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did I read that you said no to some really big surgeries, partly because of music and wanting to play music?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, the disability I have my bones kind of broke before I was born, so they healed, they don’t hurt or anything, but they healed at these 90 degree angles basically, my arms and legs. There are operations you can have to straighten them. But my parents, which I’m grateful, said they weren’t comfortable waiting that choice for me, so they waited until I could decide. But by the time, because I knew by puberty I had to decide, that’s what they said, you had to know by then, so I kept putting it off because what kid wants to have four major surgeries, not very many of them. And I was happy. I had a really, really good childhood, and I had an electric wheelchair since I was two and a half, and it just felt fine. And then when I started playing violin that’s when I knew I didn’t want the surgeries because there was some potential that I would lose movement in my hands, it’s such a big operation. And I didn’t want to risk losing any nerve function.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s so interesting that you had the wheelchair from age two and a half. So many kids don’t get it till later. And it feels like it was that comfort and confidence in getting around on wheels that was part of your decision as well?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I think about that a lot with parents. I know the director of Macbeth actually had a daughter, she passed away unfortunately, but who had a disability and he said doctors kept trying to keep them from switching to an electric wheelchair. But he pushed for it earlier because it gave her so much more independence. And so I think sometimes it’s important to either ask the kid or really think about if you aren’t going to use a mobility aid are you holding yourself back sometimes. Sometimes I think you do. And so for me I had all this mobility and could go and explore the neighbourhood and did all this stuff at a very, very young age. And I feel like, you’re right, that did shape who I am. And you can still be physically fit in a wheelchair, you can work out. I work out in my wheelchair. I think people are afraid that that means you will never move, but that’s not necessarily true. And so I think it’s good to talk about mobility aids in a bit more of an openminded way.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh yes, we talk a lot about mobility aids here. We get very geeky about them. If we have two powered wheelchair users in the same room I can take a little nap and they will talk.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, let’s talk about you were a music teacher until 2016, when you won something called Tiny Desk. Now, in the UK most people probably won’t know what that is, and it is a ridiculous name. what is it and what did you win? And how did it change you?Ìý

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was a contest by our version of the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½, the NPR, National Public Radio. And it was an annual contest where independent artists, so you couldn’t be signed to a label, you had to be independent, would submit one song, a video of a song that they wrote, and it had to be played by a desk. Because there is like a podcast that is quite popular in the US called the Tiny Desk Contest.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And really big people have played that. It’s really, really popular.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it had to be played next to a literal desk?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Like a writing desk?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, a lot of people took that quite creatively. But yes, I played it by my desk in my lesson space. It was kind of just proof that you made it for the contest I think. And it was a fun little twist. So, I recorded this video on an old phone with the worst camera in the world, and the zoom is glitchy, and I thought I had no chance. I did the best I could but I did not have…I tried to hire someone to film it and there wasn’t enough time, and we just kind of made do with what we had. I just never in a million years imagined that I would win. I mean, literally that was the furthest thing from my mind.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And how did that change your life?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You bought a van, got on the road?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, my husband and I, the prize of the contest was four shows in different cities in the country, and they flew us out and we did these shows and it was really exciting. By the end of that I was getting emails like, can you come to this venue, can you come to this venue. And I started thinking, well if I was ever going to try to tour, because I’d always been curious would that be fun, maybe I would like to do that, if I was ever going to try that was the time. So, my husband and I decided to make a go of it full time, and it’s been quite a journey. We weren’t sure if we would like it so we both took six months to decide, and then we were like, yeah, we like it, let’s keep going.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you kept going. And then the pandemic happened, you started writing a book, which we’ll get on to in a second. And you wrote the music for a really big play, Shakespeare’s Macbeth, massive play, but in a big venue on Broadway with a famous director, famous artists. What was it like scoring for that? And did being a disabled person come into that at all? Were you able to use any of your experiences there?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh wow, that’s a good question. So, it wasn’t played live, it was prerecorded. I just released the album for the soundtrack which was so fun; literally a week ago I released that. And it was a really big part of the play. I’m proud of the fact that, so I worked in tandem with the sound designer, Mikaal Sulaiman.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it was very integral to you?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Very integral. And he actually did get nominated for a Tony for sound design. I don’t think the music really had a chance because it’s not a musical, but I was really happy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But you felt like part of that nomination went to you?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, in my head.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve got a memoire coming out next year, Gaelynn. You’ve been writing it for a while.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, [laughs] quite a while.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I read your Substack newsletter, and for the last maybe year or two it’s been still working on the book, still working on the book.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In brief, what can we expect from the book?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s almost a coming of age plus musician memoire, and then turns, advocacy becomes more prominent the more you get into the book.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because you are a disability advocate.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you have even written songs about disability, like what’s the most famous one you’ve written?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I Wait I think for the advocacy. It’s called I Wait.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what’s that about?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s about needing a seat at the table. I wrote it during the first Medicaid crisis in the United States in 2017. And it’s about just needing to have a voice and being a part in discussions.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you are very political as well, aren’t you?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you’ve been very, very vocal about President Donald Trump’s second term in office. What do you think it means to and for disabled people that President Trump is in the White House for the next four years?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, it’s really, really scary to be honest, and really disappointing. I hope that we can come together and find some galvanised solutions to draw attention to the issues so that a lot of what he wants to do won’t actually happen. But it’s very scary. I’m not going to lie, it’s not a great time for disabled people in America. I know the UK has their own issues too. We’ve just got to keep being loud and putting ourselves into the conversation, even when we’re not asked to be there right, [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And DEI, all this.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yes. Oh my gosh, don’t even get me started, it’s terrible.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, there’s a lot of disabled people’s jobs at risk.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And stuff that…

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And accessibility in general, rolling back aid. They’re doing it slowly and discretely I guess, trying to take away a lot of the rights that we worked really hard to get. It’s really, really sad.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, obviously President Trump isn’t here to defend himself right now.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But we do always have music, Gaelynn, in every situation that we find ourselves in we have music.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you want to hear more of Gaelynn’s music you can find it in all the usual download-y streamy musical places. And if you want to find out Gaelynn’s UK tour, which is going on till late May – is that right?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, the 25th.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The 25th May, where do they go?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, violinscratches.com, that’s my website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we’re going to end the podcast a little bit differently today, because Gaelynn does have her violin on her chopping board sitting there in her travel wheelchair, and we are going to hear a little bit from her. Tell me what you’re going to play?

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m going to play a little fiddle tune, an Irish fiddle tune called South Wind.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much Gaelynn.

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [South Wind]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Woo! [Claps].

GAELYNN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] thank you so much. Thank you.

Ìý