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20th May 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 160

Presented by Emma TraceyÌý

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Fiona Dawson, tell me about this garden?

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s magical. My favourite bit is all the colours of the flowers and the button to press for spray.

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a secret button, isn’t it?

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A secret button.

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you can stand on a secret tile and spray somebody.

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah! Oh, that sounds like an awful lot of fun. Listen, Fiona is not just talking about any garden; she is talking about the Downs Syndrome Scotland garden at only the most famous flower show in the world, Chelsea Flower Show, which has just won one of the top awards of the show, the Silver Guild Medal. Fiona is from Downs Syndrome Scotland and Eddie, who you can also hear there, is the chief exec. And he’s absolutely proud as punch. And what else is there in the garden that’s especially about Downs Syndrome and people with Downs Syndrome?

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, the odd socks and the hug.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s the hug?

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý People with Downs Syndrome love having a hug, and so the hug is where we sit down and we enjoy the view.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who made this gorgeous garden?

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Our two superheroes, Duncan and Nick, who are our garden designers. Duncan’s nephew has Downs Syndrome, and he got in touch with our charity, didn’t he?

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And he said, ‘I’d like to give something back, your charity does such great work with my nephew’, and I never thought for a minute he meant a Chelsea Garden. So, here we are two years later and we have this incredible garden that just celebrates the superpower of people with Downs Syndrome. And it’s just a joyous garden, full of personality. A bit of fun and mischief as well, Fiona.

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Fiona and Eddie, what did the people from Downs Syndrome Scotland do?

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We had workshops.

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My own son, Finlay, has Downs Syndrome, and Finlay was here last week planting the garden. So, Finlay has grown quite a lot of the plants from bulbs, and I think they’re the best plants in the whole of Chelsea.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you would, daddy, wouldn’t you? [Laughter] What happens to this garden after the Chelsea Flower Show?

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we’re really excited to be bringing the garden home.

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Back up to Scotland.

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it’s going to Palacerigg Country Park in north Lanarkshire and it will be open to the public.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I think that sounds like a lovely Sunday day out. And poor old Finlay’s going to have to un-plant everything, bring it back up to Scotland and plant it again, is he?

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Fiona and Eddie from Downs Syndrome Scotland, thank you so much for joining me from your award-winning garden.

EDDIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much.

FIONA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On with the show!

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey, and this is Access All, the podcast that listens to disabled people and tells the stories that are important to you. Tell me those stories, whatever they are. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk or send me a message on WhatsApp, 0330 123 9480.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, later I will chat to Ellie Simmonds, she won five gold medals in Paralympic swimming before turning to TV presenting. And I’ll be speaking to her about her latest very thought-provoking documentary, Ellie Simmonds: Should I Have Children?

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But first, disabled people both sides of the Atlantic have been making their voices heard by protesting and mobilising to government buildings. Disability politics does have a very strong grassroots tradition, but it is hard for people who are disabled who have physical impairments, mental health difficulties, learning disabilities, the list goes on, to get out and to support a cause. So, let’s find out why some people in the disability communities in the US and in the UK have been compelled towards protesting and how they’ve made it happen. I will be talking to Julie Farrar and Domonique Howell from disability advocacy group, ADAPT, in the US shortly. But first Alex Collins, from Access All, is down at a mass lobby of MPs event at the UK parliament in Westminster, today 21 May. Hi Alex.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What is it like down there?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been a very lively day. It was kind of seeing democracy in action because I didn’t know this but apparently all of us as UK citizens are entitled to go to parliament and demand to see our MP to talk about whatever issue we want to. It’s called green carding, I suppose that’s because the card is green. Basically that’s what these disability rights campaigners were doing today. So, we got to the central lobby, and basically the sight before me was to see about 20 or so people in wheelchairs, there must have been about 100 people I heard. And you just see there was a man announcing MPs as they were arriving in the lobby to just link up the person who’d come to see their MP with their respective MP.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What does the central lobby look like?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s sort of this ornate hall with very high ceilings. It was actually the place where Queen Elizabeth II lay in state.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why is this mass lobbying event happening today?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s taking place because basically, as our listeners probably know, a couple of weeks ago the government launched a consultation to the green paper, but a big issue in that paper was this idea of benefits and cuts to benefits. The government have said that you can participate in the consultation, and they’ve done a lot of events across the country. But there was a sense I get from the community and different activist groups, including Disability Rights UK and Inclusion London, that groups wanted to come together to find community but also to give a strength of feeling to how they feel about the proposed government cuts to benefits. Because there’s many in the disabled community that I’ve spoken to today who are very concerned that if these cuts go through it will make their lives harder. And so I think they were coming together today to try and sort of do some informal lobbying with their MPs. Some would say it’s not a protest; some would say it’s just they’re exercising their democratic right to speak to their MP individually and just see what they’ll say.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Obviously there are changes planned to disability benefits. We’ve got the changes on PIP eligibility, who’s eligible for the non-means tested benefit that’s around the extra costs of being disabled. That’s going to be voted on in parliament in June. And then we’ve got the health element of Universal Credit and changes to the amounts that new applicants will get for that, and that’s also going to go to a vote. And these people want to lobby their MPs to find out what they’re going to vote and to try and convince them to vote a certain way.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A lot of people have told me that they’re very surprised that this government is doing this, because they historically have seen that the Labour government when they’ve been in power the idea is that they’ll back the people who have the least power. But at the same time I think the government are very mindful of the fact that they would say we’re not trying to penalise those who are disabled and cannot work, we just think there are too many people in the UK who are not working and it would be of some benefit if some of those get into work, because it’s good for your self-esteem, it’s good for your mental health etc. But earlier today I caught up with some people who had come along to parliament and this is what they told me:

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My name is Dan Edge. I’ve come from Northampton. My MP is Mike Reader from Northampton South. I emailed him before the event and didn’t get a response, so I came down to green card him. For those that don’t know what green carding is, it’s basically filling in a form saying we’re here, please come and see us. And literally the colleague has just rung me to say he’s turned up and he’s given me his phone number and his email address to contact him.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why did you make the journey?

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s important. Obviously there are many deaf, disabled and neurodivergent people that are worried about the reforms that are potentially going to happen to PIP, and the only way we as the general public can try and stop that happening is to campaign, is to pressure our MPs into saying this isn’t going to work. I’m fortunate enough that I’m able to come down and be here, so I felt that I had to.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Was it difficult to get here today?

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I travel quite a lot, but I still had to get on trains and preplan access there. And then I had to get in a cab, and because of traffic obviously there’s more expense. And that’s what PIP is supposed to cover. Which is why these reforms are so dangerous and scary, because PIP is there to cover that extra cost of that cab I needed to get to be here. And that could be removed.

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m Anna Landry. I live here in London. I live in Keir Starmer’s constituency.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re MP obviously, you just alluded to, is the Prime Minister. Has he turned up?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. I’ve emailed him twice. I haven’t heard back from his constituency office. And I’ve green carded him. I’m not expecting to be able to meet with him today, particularly because this is rather his government’s policy and he’s very much behind it.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Could you just describe for our listeners about what you saw when you arrived at parliament?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s quite a sight to see. You’ve got dozens, at least so far, of disabled people of all different types from all different parts of the UK green carding their MPs, preparing to speak with those who will actually show up. And really finding community. Because the fact is everyone thinks the benefit system is broken. There’s not one disabled person here who will tell you that things are good as they are. But this is not the right type of so-called reform.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right, Alex, I’ll check back in with you in a bit. But first let’s go across the Pond and speak to a couple of disabled people from the US who have been involved in their own event recently. Last week in America around 90 disabled people protested at a public event in congress. A bill was being debated which could see changes to who is entitled to Medicaid. In very, very simple terms, Medicaid covers those on low incomes who cannot afford private medical insurance. 26 of those disabled protesters were arrested. One of those is with me to tell me what happened, Domonique Howell. And also we’ve got a veteran disability rights protestor, Julie Farrar, to tell us a bit more of the history of protests by disability rights activists in the US. Let’s start with you, Domonique. How are you doing?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý I’m well, thank you for asking.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me a bit about yourself and ADAPT?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý I’ve been with ADAPT for almost seven years now. The last week would be considered my second action, but it would be considered my first arrest.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And where did you travel from to protest?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý I travelled two hours away from Philadelphia in Pennsylvania.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what led you to protest?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý Because my life is on the line. The disability community that I serve is at stake. And so what better way to advocate for that and to put into action than to protest?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And why do you believe that your life is at stake?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý Because without Medicaid, even though I have a full-time job and a family, I would not be able to have services which allow me to have attender care, which allows me to work. So, I need Medicaid to thrive and survive.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And the government would say that disabled people like you will continue to get Medicaid, and what they’re trying to do with this bill is to remove waste, fraud and abuse from the system.

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý That myth needs to be dispelled because there are more people who need Medicaid and benefit from Medicaid and thrive on Medicaid than there is waste and abuse.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me about the day itself?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý It was a very exciting day for all of us, the most we’ve had in a long time and action. We had 80 plus ADAPTers. We were doing media in the hallway, chanting in the hallways [protestors chanting].

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The chair, committee will come to order.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what led to your arrest?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý Within the first 15 minutes of the congressional hearing for the reconciliation bill the outside crowd of ADAPT started chanting, and when they stopped the five of us that were in the hearing started chanting. And under this current administration they don’t give us as many warnings as they have in the past, and so we had to just be arrested.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what happened after the arrest then?

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý We went into a basement and got processed. It wasn’t too bad. It was more an attitudinal barrier than a physical one. Capitol police said things like, ‘Well, now you can stop the show’ and we said in the elevator while we were being escorted down, ‘But this is not about a show, this is not about entertainment, this is about our lives. And we have the right to do that, we have the right to free speech and we have the right to speak up to our congressmen’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Julie, how does this compare to other protests by ADAPT? You’re a veteran, you’ve been on many.

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I am a veteran. I have been chaining myself to people, places and things for 40 years now. ADAPT was started in 1978 when 19 people blocked a bus for three days, and they were fighting for access to public transportation.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you think yours, protests like that and like last week’s, have they led to progress? Or do you still feel like you're in a similar position that you were back then?

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, absolutely. People do not realise that rights are never given. We almost must fight for rights. The ADA was passed in 1990.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s the Disabilities Act, like we have in the UK .

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I crawled up the steps to the Capitol to emphasise how inaccessible our country, our world was to get the Americans with Disabilities Act passed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you think there will be more protests in the US by disabled people in the near future?

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. As Dom said, we are fighting for our lives. I am bone weary of fighting for the right to exist. And Trump calls this a big beautiful bill; it’s a big beautiful bill for billionaires. We’re paying for billionaires’ rockets out of poor people’s pockets, and we will continue the fight.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we don’t have a government representative here to respond to that, Julie, but thank you so much. Let’s go back now to our roving reporter, Alex Collins. And he’s in the UK parliament event today at Westminster. He’s grabbed one of the organisers of this event, Svetlana Kotova. Svetlana, how has the event gone?

SVETLANA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, Emma. Yeah, it’s gone relatively well. There are so many disabled people who wanted to come and talk to their MP. I think for us it just indicates how much anger there is in our community. On the other hand it’s been really difficult because, for example, they kept the number of people who can get in to 75, and we had a long queue of people outside trying to get in. Also I was frustrated because, for example, I was asked to take my t-shirt off which at the front said, Inclusion London, and at the back it said, Nothing About Us Without Us. I mean, they say it’s political, exactly, but that’s not really a political slogan even.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Why did you not go for a protest like ADAPT in the US, force your way in somewhere, do chanting?

SVETLANA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We are considering different options. We’ve just started; there might be protests later on. At the moment we want to try and get people to talk to their MPs and see where they stand and see how we can persuade them, because the bill is not here, it’s not yet in parliament. But we’re not saying that we’re going to stop here. If we’re not listened to at all then of course we’ll consider all other options.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. How many people did turn up and how many got to meet their MPs? Ballpark, you probably weren’t counting them with a little clicker, but as far as you can tell?

SVETLANA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I would say more than 100 people turned up. I can’t really tell how many people met their MPs.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And where have the disabled people who went to parliament today, where have they come from and how did they get here? Because it can, as I said in the introduction, be really, really tricky for all sorts of reasons for disabled people to mobilise and show up and fight for a cause.

SVETLANA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There are people who came from Northern Ireland, from Wales, from Birmingham, from the north.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really impressive. How did you get over some of those stumbling blocks? I heard there was some funding available.

SVETLANA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think what people need to realise that it’s not easy for many of us disabled people to get together and protest. Transport is not accessible in London if you’re a wheelchair user. If you’re visually impaired you need guiding, help to get to the right end and do the whole green card and stuff. If you’re neurodivergent some things might not be just the right environments for you. If you’re deaf you just need information and be yourself.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you were able to help a little bit?

SVETLANA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we were able to help with that, yeah. We paid for some travel expenses for people. If you’re on benefits and you really struggle to make ends meet, and your MP will not see you in their constituency, which we know many people who emailed and tried to ask for meetings and didn’t get them, so what else do you do?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Starmer mentioned a potential U-turn for winter fuel payments in Prime Minister’s questions today: 9 million more pensioners to get the £300 payment again potentially. Do you think anything like that could happen in terms of welfare cuts changes?

SVETLANA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We hope so. Basically I think Labour MPs, all of them, need to know that disabled people voted for them, they wanted a change, they wanted a change for the better, and many disabled people will lose support and the cuts will be even worse than what Conservatives introduced like a decade ago. People are not going to forgive the Labour party for this, so MPs should really know that there are some of them who might be in danger because their majorities are slim. And really we ask them to raise their concerns and stand up for our rights.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The government says that their changes will save £5 billion by 2030, and they say that it’s good for disabled people to be in work because work’s good for your mental health. And they say that those who cannot work will be looked after with less assessments for benefits and also a specific Universal Credit premium for them as well. So, that’s what the government says.

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I just wanted to say, go Svetlana, and we are with you in spirit. Nothing about us without us!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Svetlana Kotova, thank you so much, Alex as well in Westminster, and thank you to Julie and to Domonique in the US as well. Bye.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye bye.

DOMONIQUE-ÌýÌýÌý And as we say in the States, we are people.

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s right, we are people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You will have thoughts on this, I’m absolutely sure. If you do please get in touch with us. We’re on our email, you can send us a message on WhatsApp, social media, on Instagram and on X.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media, and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now it is time to hear from you. I absolutely love getting your messages, as you know, and you have not disappointed. Thank you for getting in touch. Millie Hayward was listening to Amelie on last week’s episode and hearing about her clothing business. Amelie is a young autistic business owner. And Millie was inspired to tell us her story, thank you so much Millie. Millie says she created a clothing brand called Mentally Unstitched – love that name – after she really struggled for years with mental illness and being undiagnosed as autistic. She says she couldn’t get a job because she had no qualifications due to having to leave school at 14 and be admitted to hospital for a number of years. And she also felt very much discriminated against because of a feeding tube that she has, and she says that employers didn’t like that. So, she decided to create something of her own to show people what was possible. She now makes clothes for disabled people, people with mental health issues, neurodivergent people, and she says they’re fun and unique and they make people smile. Millie, I love to hear it. thank you for getting in touch.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, remember Hani last week told us about their audio series with descriptions of art for blind people. And I said to give us a shout if there was something that you were doing online that you thought Access Allers would want to know about. Well, you did. Muscular Dystrophy UK got in touch about their Muscles Matter podcast. Their most recent episode is about employment, they thought that we would want to know about that because that is indeed one of our very hottest topics. And in that episode there are three people with sort of muscular conditions going on. One of them runs Muscular Dystrophy UK’s employability helpline, and they talk about their paths to work and give some tips around looking for and applying for jobs. Really good to hear about that, thank you so much.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Violin playing] now, we posted such a lovely video last week of Gaelynn Lea playing her violin in a way a cellist would play a cello, because holding it the usual way doesn’t work for her. And people loved it. Elle Belle Bumble says that she loves Gaelynn Lea’s music and that her gigs are always fabulous and she is a boss with a loop pedal as well. Thank you for that, Elle Belle Bumble. Chelsea J called her an innovator. And, let me get this name right, Jez Jen Yunus said that she is fascinating, admirable and inspiring.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for getting in touch. I really, really appreciate it. And you can do so too. Tell us what you think we should be covering, tell us your story, tell us what you’re doing: accessall@bbc.co.uk is our email address. You can send me a message on WhatsApp 0330 123 9480. And we are on social media, we are on Instagram and X @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My guest this time is Ellie Simmonds OBE. She made a splash in the Paralympic swimming scene at the age of just 12, became a household name at London 2012, and she won five Paralympic golds before retiring in 2021 aged just 26. Since then she’s been a contestant on Strictly Come Dancing, she’s been in the presenting teams for the Paralympics in Paris, and in Crufts, which must have been a lot of fun. In 2023 we saw Ellie Simmonds in a really emotionally charged documentary called Finding My Secret Family, about how she was adopted as a baby. And now we’re going to see her in another really hard-hitting documentary called Should I Have Children? What a provocative title that is. Hello, Ellie Simmonds.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, thank you so, so much, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s quite a big introduction. You’re only 30, you’ve done an awful lot of things.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I have and it’s weird, isn’t it? Like, I think when you’re in the moment sometimes you forget the things that you’ve done in the past. Like, crazy to think I’ve been retired four years.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But yeah, I’ve been lucky and I’ve loved everything that I’ve done since retirement. My documentary, Finding My Secret Family, which has had some great success.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bafta winning.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, literally. I’m so proud of that. I think it’s been my proudest achievement since the Paralympics and the gold medal. And now this new documentary that we’ve been doing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How would you describe Should I Have Children? the documentary that you’ve just made?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s about being a 30 year-old and a lot of people my age now, or even younger or older, have that point in their life thinking about do I want children or not. And also we’re following on from the previous documentary where my birth mum got told that I had dwarfism, I had achondroplasia, we weren’t intellectually intelligent it seemed, we’d maybe find it hard with the bullying and the jobs. I think we speak to my birth mum from her point of view, the fear that a lot of these families have when you as a couple or as an individual the process of having a child is tough. It’s not in the documentary but we speak to a lot of people who have gone through IVF and have had many miscarriages. People don’t really talk about the struggles. You get told when you’re in school that it's easy to get pregnant, like it’s a thing that you do overnight and it’s easy, that nine months of carrying a baby and then the baby’s there, and that joyful experience. It’s not talked about the struggles, the struggles to have IVF, the struggles to have a child, and the vulnerability as well for a woman too.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s called Should I Have Children? All the way through you ask that of yourself as a disabled person with a genetic condition. What was that process like for you questioning it yourself all the time?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s something that you do, don’t you, as a woman, and especially with a disability as well. But at this point in time I don’t think I’m ready to have children just yet; I’m quite enjoying my life of just…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did the documentary reaffirm that for you?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it did, yeah [laughter]. I know from my friends who have all got children it’s exhausting, and yeah, something that I’d maybe like to do in the future. But it has been really interesting to have some families open up.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so who did you speak to for it?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Key on the documentary is a wonderful couple, Megan and David, who they open up their story about the processes that they went to have a baby and then finding out that their baby has Downs Syndrome, and the testing that they went though and the emotion that it was as well. Yes, when they got the phone call there was emotion, but they knew that they wanted the baby no matter what.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And a huge percent of people that get told that their baby has Downs Syndrome don’t continue with the pregnancy.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, like, shocking numbers. I think it’s 90% now because of, again science is incredible, but with more and more people with the PGT-M test, which I hope I’m saying it right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The special type of IVF that means that the embryo that gets implanted doesn’t include the gene that causes the condition and the complications and stuff like that.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And again, with different conditions there’s different severities. For me if I was to have a baby with a dwarf partner there’s a chance that the baby could be double dose, so that means that the baby just wouldn’t survive. So, a lot of individuals of dwarfism have this opportunity to go to testing to make sure that the baby doesn’t have double dose.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Double dose is something that I have never heard of before. What is that?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, double dose is when both dwarf partners give their dwarf gene. And it means the gene is just so dominant the organs just don’t grow.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, that’s something you have to think about if you have a baby with someone else with the same type of dwarfism as you, right?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s any dwarfism.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it’s any dwarfism?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so that’s what I learnt actually. So, beforehand we thought there were over 200 types, but now due to connections around the world there’s over 700 types of dwarfism.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s just fascinating and fabulous to celebrate.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you got access to this really special unit in a hospital. What did you get to witness there?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The team embedded themselves for a long time there and we got incredible access of scanning and genetics and following families too.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a foetal medicine unit?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, a foetal medicine unit, and just seeing what happens for a woman. Because a lot of the women when there are maybe complications you realise that there’s so many disabilities out there, and some are actually super lifechanging, and also some of the babies sadly just can’t survive.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A lot of disabled parents particularly have really strong feelings about prenatal testing. And you got to have a look at that and why it happens. Did it change how you feel about it?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know what, I actually wasn’t very much aware of it before. I think it’s there, and I think for some conditions it’s actually really good because, again, with double dose if you had an unborn baby, foetus with double dose it just won’t survive. So, mentally for the woman and for the family it’s great that they’re aware of it and can go through not having a double dose. But then also with it, like you said, 90% now of Downs Syndrome babies are getting aborted because of the testing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And did you speak to people who did end a pregnancy after the prenatal testing?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We did. We met a lovely family, Levi and Louise, and they had a baby with a condition that he found out he was the carrier. And then they had a second baby and they didn’t do PGT-M testing and sadly that baby, lots of complications happened and they sadly had to terminate the pregnancy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which was very, very sad. And she talks to me about that in the documentary. And then her third pregnancy she did PGT-M testing because of what they went through on that second pregnancy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And that’s a really emotional part of the documentary because the mum shows you where they keep his ashes. It must have been an emotionally draining job for you, Ellie, this documentary.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was very much so, because you want to make sure that you’re talking about everything, but also you’re going through it with all of the people that you meet. And this is real-life situation, this is real stuff, like women…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s life or death.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, very much so.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s life-changing for them.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And also I want to try and educate the wider society on disability.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý By the end of the documentary, Ellie, do we find out what your decision is?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It swaps and changes all the time [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a really personal choice based on your lifestyle and where you are in life at the moment, rather than on the fact that you’re a disabled woman or…?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. That doesn’t have any filter on it at all.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There are so many other things that I would love to talk to you about. And since you retired from swimming, you were just 26, why was 20, 21 the right time for you?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For me I think I’d been to four Paralympics, I’d found my talent at such a young age, at 13. I went to my first Games in Beijing in 2008, came away with two gold medals. I think for me it was just the right time. I’d done everything that I’d wanted to do. I was starting to go to training, especially Tokyo, and that lead-up was a lot harder, it was really tough. COVID times actually me and my coach decided to just not swim and just do lots of land work because yeah, just to adapt and stuff. And I moved back to my parents’ and was with them, and just decided we don’t know how long lockdown was going to last, and at the start of lockdown we found out that the Games were going to be delayed a year. And you’re never going to lose that swimming in you. Even now I try and swim as much as I can, but it’s like riding a bike, you don’t do it for ages but it’s still there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you try and beat people in the pool now?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know what, I don’t do that. But I always look and think how can I improve their swimming stroke.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh really?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s like this little job that I do in my mind.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you tell them? I think that would be hilarious if Ellie did.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sometimes I do, if they want to chat to me; sometimes I don’t. Swimming is great for the mind. It’s so good just to swim for 30 minutes and just put your phone in the locker and just go up and down and just be in your own mind.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And when you did retire is it fair to say that you, like you’ve done so much since but you’ve tried lots of different things, so were you a little bit adrift for a while?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, very much so because my identity was swimming. I tried out so many different things, and now to be able to have this opportunity four years later to still be really, really busy and to be doing the documentaries and to be doing, like, presenting Crufts, which was one of my favourite things I’ve ever done, literally.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] surrounded by dogs.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, five days surrounded by dogs.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you have a dog?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t, but I’m looking at getting one.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What kind of a dog would you like?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m happy with anything. I do love miniature schnauzers. But at the moment where I’m living I’m trying to figure things out but yeah, definitely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s on the horizon?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah. Now, you grew up in the public eye, so much so that I interviewed you 15 years ago.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Gosh!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In a section called 13 Questions. It just makes me feel old, right.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I was 15.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were 15. Would it be okay if I asked you some of the questions from that interview again?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’d love that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we can compare our answers.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That would be amazing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý First question: I excel at…?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I excel at talking to people and being social. I’m good at giving time to my friends.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý that’s a lovely, lovely answer. You said when you were 15: falling asleep in the car and singing badly.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, well I can’t fall asleep in the car now because I have to drive [laughter] so that would be very dangerous.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You said: cats scream and windows break when I sing in the car [laughter].

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh really?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s what you said; you’re not that bad.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Again, I don’t think people want to hear me sing, but.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You could give us a tune now if you’d like.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, no, I think I would definitely break a few glasses.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We won’t have you break the Access All mugs, thank you.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Next one: somebody should invent…?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A time travelling thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s what you said then!

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my gosh!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why do you want one of those?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I can, like, not have to get on planes, so I can just travel and go and see and travel the world without having to do the journey. I could just click my fingers and just travel.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Next one: I’d like to ban…?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Middle lane drivers on the motorway. I don’t know why it winds me up real bad when people drive slow, drive in the middle lane and don’t think about others.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s very similar to the answer you gave when you were 15. Do you know what you said?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What did I say?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Old people on the road [laughter].

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Gosh. Well, yes, slow drivers. I’m definitely impatient when it comes to driving. That’s crazy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m going to take liberties and ask one more question.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, please. I like this.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In the future I…?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In the future I would love a dog, and I want to travel more.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Where do you want to go?

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Gosh, everywhere, Emma, literally everywhere. I want to do more of the UK. I would love to go to Tonga, Fiji, Amsterdam.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know what, you actually said something very similar back then: in the future I can’t just be a swimmer because some day I’ll turn old.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh [laughter] straight to the point, Simmonds.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. love that interview. Ellie Simmonds, what a joy and a pleasure it has been to have you on Access All. And Should I Have Children? is available on ITVX.

ELLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed that chat.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you Ellie there for being game and answering some of the questions I put to her when she was just 15. That is it for this episode. What should we be doing in future weeks? What stories shall we be telling? Who should we be speaking to? Let me know. We’re on the socials, we’re on Instagram and X @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll, and we’re on the email accessall@bbc.co.uk. If you like what you hear and you haven’t done already please do subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds. Catch you next time. Bye.

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