蜜芽传媒

27th May 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All 鈥� episode 161
Presented by Emma Tracey

TROY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, Emma, nice to meet you. My name is Troy and I am 17 years old. I am a pupil at Fleming Fulton School.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I can hear that you鈥檙e using a communication aid there, and with a lovely northern Ireland accent. It鈥檚 the first communication aid I鈥檝e heard with that accent so that鈥檚 really cool. Now, Troy, we鈥檝e been told by some people on the email that sometimes our podcast can be a little bit serious and it can be a little bit bleak because there鈥檚 lots of bleak news around in the disability world at the moment. So, we have decided to start the podcast these days with a really positive story, and a disabled person doing something really cool and upbeat. So, Troy, what have you been up to?

TROY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 At school I鈥檓 on the student council and a member of the Makaton choir. Makaton is a language programme used to communicate where you speak and sign at the same time. I suggested to the student council that our Makaton choir could join up with Belfast Boys鈥� Model School choir, a local mainstream school near my house. My uncle is a teacher there. Everyone thought this was a great idea. Natalie and I we went to Boys鈥� Model to teach them two songs using Makaton. We practised together and then we went to their school to perform in their concert [music and clapping].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That sounds like massive fun. And Natalie, who you mentioned, is your speech and language therapist. Now, my favourite fact maybe in the whole world is that Makaton stands for Margaret Katherine and Tony who created this method of signing, Makaton. I think that鈥檚 very, very, very, very cool.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Troy, I鈥檝e also heard that you鈥檝e been doing your Duke of Edinburgh Award recently. What鈥檚 that involved?

TROY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I am currently completing my bronze Duke of Edinburgh. It is made up of four parts: Part one is skill; we鈥檙e making Christmas crafts to sell and raise money for school. Part 2 is physical; I am attending a circus group. Part 3 is volunteering; we鈥檙e improving our school by gardening, litter picking, painting, running a tuck shop and creating new noticeboards. The final part is our expedition; we had a two-day expedition around Belfast the docks, Titanic area and lots more. It was great fun but I am exhausted.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Wow, that sounds amazing. Do you know what, there鈥檚 so much, Troy, that I鈥檇 love to talk to you about, but this is our little positive bit at the start of the show so I鈥檓 going to leave it there while we鈥檙e on a high. Thank you so much for joining me to Troy.

TROY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks for chatting with me and letting me show you how I communicate. It was nice to meet you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Bye.

TROY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Bye.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Dave, hit the music.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the 蜜芽传媒鈥檚 weekly disability and mental health podcast. You can email us on this episode or any of our other ones, accessall@bbc.co.uk. And if you haven鈥檛 already done so please do subscribe to us, Access All on 蜜芽传媒 Sounds.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, later I speak to Guardian columnist, Frances Ryan about her book, Who Wants Normal? The Disabled Girls鈥� Guide to Life. Now, it鈥檚 part memoire, but it鈥檚 also full of stories and life advice from over 70 disabled women. Yes! But first, we鈥檝e got an exclusive interview with Adolescence writer Jack Thorne. Jack has signed a letter, along with over 100 other disabled people, asking the government to stop planned cuts to disability benefits. Jack, hello, thank you for joining me.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you for having me on, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Jack, summarise the letter for me. What does it say?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it鈥檚 basically a group of people from the disabled community just saying enough is enough. The challenges that this government and previous governments have placed in front of the disabled community have been huge. And these latest changes to PIP are both wrong and dangerous, and we need to be challenging them as a society to prevent people being left in severe hardship by this.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Planned changes to Personal Independence Payments of course include the fact that people, to get the standard rate, will need to get four points on one activity, rather than getting those four points across different activities. And people feel that that will affect people with certain disabilities more than others. And why have you specifically put your name to the letter?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, because I feel very passionately about it. What they鈥檙e talking about in terms of changing the rules as to how you get PIP could leave disabled people in quite severe poverty. It is very expensive, as you know, being a disabled person. There was a Scope report that said it costs 拢1,010 a month extra to be a disabled person in this country. It is expensive. But these people that we鈥檙e dismissing contribute so vitally to our country, and we need to be supporting them. And the extra payments are required, are necessary for people to have any quality of life. And they鈥檙e doing this in a similar way to the winter fuel payments, seemingly without much thought because they鈥檙e worried about disability benefits rising. They鈥檙e worried about all these different things, but the answer to that is not to kick the people who are suffering the most; the answer to that is to work out new ways to get people back into work. And let鈥檚 not get started on Access to Work, which is, as you know, a mess.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, we will be talking about Access to Work quite a lot more in the future on Access All. But Jack, the government says that it鈥檚 about getting people back into work, that it鈥檚 healthy, work is healthy, that it鈥檚 aspirational, and that they will provide help for people who need it. That鈥檚 good, isn鈥檛 it?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 very good. I don鈥檛 see that being backed up by any suggestion as to how they鈥檙e helping people get back to work. And I don鈥檛 think helping people getting back to work will be possible without Access to Work changing quite considerably from the situation it is now. I think there鈥檚 55,000 people on waiting lists at the moment for Access to Work payments, so it's pretty extraordinary how bad that is.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And just to say, that鈥檚 the government鈥檚 scheme which provides money for disabled people that is intended to cover the extra cost of having a job when you鈥檙e disabled.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But also these payments are about challenging the notion of what disability is. That what they鈥檙e saying with this PIP stuff in terms of all your qualifying points need to have come from one disability rather than a range of disabilities, it鈥檚 just a challenge as to what disability is, and it鈥檚 completely wrong. They鈥檝e just got this one so wrong, and I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 been done with enough consultation with the disabled community. And I think if they did consult meaningfully they would discover what they need to do here, and it鈥檚 not this.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There is a consultation ongoing. As you say, Personal Independence Payments and Universal Credit payments are not included in that consultation. But changes around the PIP assessment and around Access to Work are, and that consultation ends on 30th June.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Jack, you鈥檝e said you feel really strongly about this. Some people won鈥檛 know your connections with disability, so is it okay to tell the people listening your connections?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. So, I was very disabled in my 20s. I had a condition called cholinergic urticaria which is an allergy to heat, which left me bedbound for six months because every time I moved I was having an allergic reaction to my body. That has since improved. I am an autistic man. But more than that I鈥檝e spent my life in and around the disabled community and making shows, both theatre, TV around disability. And I think the way we treat disabled people in this country has become increasingly problematic. What was done during COVID in terms of the lack of support for disabled people I think just showed a country that is ableist. And this is part of a long line of government taking ableist measures that do immense damage, and we need to be challenging it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, the government would say that they need to save 拢5 billion across the benefits, including Personal Independence Payments and Universal Credit, and they feel that these changes will help people back into work, and they say that they鈥檙e offering specific help for people who want to do that. And what do you hope the letter and the campaign will achieve?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I hope it will change the law. I hope it will change this law coming in. I hope it will change the way that PIP is going to be calculated. It needs to because this is just wrong.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think that it鈥檚 relevant and important to talk about Adolescence in relation to this, as one of your massive hits this year. It follows a young 13 year-old boy accused of murder and the investigations into that, which bring up the fact that his views on women informed by the so-called manosphere, it launched national debates around social media use and online use. And you actually met Keir Starmer who was engaged with that. Do you think he鈥檒l engage with this?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I hope so. It鈥檚 been amazing Adolescence having the impact it has had, and we鈥檙e still all reeling from it in truth. I鈥檝e made a whole number of shows that I hoped would lead to conversations nationally about stuff, because that鈥檚 what we all do, that鈥檚 what we鈥檙e feeing the fire with, feeding the fire of society. Shows like Help and Then Barbara Met Alan, which were specifically looking at the disabled community and the treatment of disability, and Don鈥檛 Take My Baby and Cast Offs, which helped hopefully to a conversation about care workers. With Then Barbara Met Alan I hoped it would lead to where we鈥檙e at with disability rights, because it hasn鈥檛 happened in the way that Barbara and Alan fought for it to happen. I don鈥檛 know that this will necessarily get Keir Starmer around the table again. He was very sincere and he was very interested in Adolescence, and I鈥檓 really, really grateful for that. And I think he needs to be as interested in this.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And have you seen any change or difference since you met Keir Starmer?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Not yet, but it is a gradual process and there are people engaging all over the place. I mean, the Women and Equalities Select Committee have now launched an investigation into the manosphere, which I think will hopefully lead to a great change. And there are a group of Labour MPs who are pushing very hard for legislative change to protect people from the internet, and I hope that will lead to change too.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you talked about all the work that you鈥檝e done with disabled people in the creative industry and the dramas that you鈥檝e made around disability. What impact do you believe that the planned cuts will have on maybe you, but maybe people you know and people you work with?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think they鈥檒l have a huge impact. I鈥檓 aware of friends of mine that are really struggling right now. And it makes me incredibly angry that talented brilliant people are being denied the support that they need in order to lead a reasonable quality of life. And I don鈥檛 understand why I live in a country now where we punch down quite as much as we do, and it worries me about the future direction of travel.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 As hard as it as, and as bleak as many disabled people feel, would it inspire another drama from you, Jack, this situation and what鈥檚 happening?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I don鈥檛 know. I鈥檓 really pleased that there are disabled voices arriving on television, like Kyla Harris, like Billy Mager, who are telling authentic interesting disabled stories. And I think there was a period when I was the only one being allowed the pen, and it makes me very happy that that pen is now being shared with people that are much better and cleverer than I am and can talk authentically about their disabled experience and share their stories with the country.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We put the contents of the letter and what Jack told us to the Department of Work and Pensions. And a government spokesperson told us:

DWP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We are determined to support people in all parts of the country by tackling poverty and creating secure, well-paid jobs. PIP is a part of the way that we support disabled people and people with long-term health conditions. But with the number of people claiming PIP doubling since the pandemic it's right that we rebalance the system to ensure support is targeted to those who need it most. Alongside this, as part of our plan for change, we鈥檝e increased the national living wage, uprated benefits and are helping over one million households by introducing a fairer payment rate on Universal Credit deductions.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The two people Jack talked about at the end there are deaf and disabled screenwriters. William Mager wrote Reunion and Kyla Harris wrote We Might Regret This. Both were on 蜜芽传媒 TV recently and they鈥檙e still available to watch on iPlayer. Thank you to Jack Thorne for that exclusive interview there. And you can read about it also on the 蜜芽传媒 News website.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Based on timings and the government鈥檚 wish to get this through parliament we鈥檙e expecting the vote to happen any week now. And the government are currently holding a consultation on some of the planned benefit changes, and that closes on 30th June. Also if you want to hear what Minister of State for Social Security and Disability, Stephen Timms thinks about the plans we have an episode on that too, which you can find by searching up Access All on 蜜芽传媒 Sounds.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media, and read our articles on the 蜜芽传媒 News website.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My guest this time is journalist and author, Dr Frances Ryan. For the past decade Frances has been a columnist and reporter with The Guardian, focusing often on disabled people鈥檚 struggles. But her work has popped up elsewhere too. An interview she did with Labour鈥檚 Angela Rayner was on the cover of British Vogue. And Frances has a new book out, which seems like a grand excuse to me to get her in for a chat. Hi, Frances.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 Hello, lovely to speak to you. I feel like I鈥檝e been listening to you on the podcast for ages, so it鈥檚 so nice to be here.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Listen, Who Wants Normal? The Disabled Girls鈥� Guide to Life, how would you describe the book, Frances?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 So, the book is really my love letter, if you like, to disabled women and disabled people generally. I wanted to shine a spotlight on the kind of everyday things that everyone goes through in life but just aren鈥檛 often looked at from the disabled perspective. And to do that I talked about my own experiences, but I also invited over 50 of Britain鈥檚 best known, fantastic disabled women and non-binary people to share their personal experiences.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What were some of the things that maybe surprised you or interested you that so many of the women that you spoke to and the non-binary people that you spoke to said?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 The idea that we鈥檙e all dealing with these really low expectations in life that people often have of us, that your life鈥檚 going to be really rubbish essentially, miserable and tragic. And that actually, as the book shows, there are so many incredible experiences, but society often says that that isn鈥檛 going to happen to you because you鈥檙e disabled.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, one of the stories that you tell in your book is about the time you went to the pub and got the flu.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 I think anyone who has ever come down with a chronic illness or any sort of long-term condition really knows that there鈥檚 no kind of long build-up; it鈥檚 just completely random. And for me it was a post-viral illness that I got from flu in the pub on top of the muscle weakness that I have from birth. So, I think that鈥檚 the issue, isn鈥檛 it, it鈥檚 just completely mundane and ordinary and then your life kind of changes. I think that鈥檚 something that most of us can identify with: we鈥檙e either born with our disability or we acquire it in later life. But whatever it is there鈥檚 no instruction manual that comes with it, there鈥檚 no blueprint; it鈥檚 just something entirely random that happens to your life and then you deal with it, don鈥檛 you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you managed to do both: you managed to be born with a disability and then acquire an illness.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 All right, Emma, I concede that, okay [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e talking about the weeks and months after the flu and that change to your situation and just being more ill and more fatigued than ever before. For someone who鈥檚 listening to this and who might not have the energy at the moment to read a book what could you tell them about that?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 I was really conscious of that that if you鈥檙e in pain or you鈥檙e fatigued or whatever the issue, it鈥檚 sometimes really hard to access books because it can feel so overwhelming. And it was kind of similar for me writing it that it took me four years to do. And I just wrote it in really small bits, like on my phone in bed, when I felt up to it. And I guess for people reading who had switched off from books I try to share bits of it on my social media in picture form, on Instagram and X and Bluesky, that do want to have a little bit of a book but aren鈥檛 manage to have the whole thing. I wrote it in deliberate sections so it鈥檚 easy to just read a couple of pages.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And if someone was to read one section of the book, which one would you start with?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 I think it would depend what mood I was in. If I was looking for something quite hard-hitting I鈥檇 read the healthcare chapter because it kind of outlines the prejudice and inequality that a lot of us face whilst accessing healthcare. And also some top tips from patient advocates and medics on how to get better treatment options. But if it was something more light-hearted I would go straight probably to the relationships chapter.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me about Rosie Jones, because she鈥檚 an interesting one, a gay women on dating apps. What stories did she tell you?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 Rosie鈥檚 experience was when she used to be on the apps she didn鈥檛 know whether or not to disclose that she has a disability. And she thought it was kind of like she was cat fishing if she didn鈥檛 say anything, but if she did say something she鈥檇 get no matches at all. And I think that鈥檚 an experience that a lot of people can identify with, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 And I think one thing that I really loved about getting all the different anecdotes together from so many different people was that you get the cross-section, you get the dating nightmares, the app stuff, but you also get the lovely stuff of people that had found someone who are perfect for them. And, as I say in the book, you can鈥檛 promise that you鈥檒l find the right person, just like a non-disabled person can鈥檛; but you can promise that actually the right person won鈥檛 care at all about how you move, how you talk, what you need. The right person will just care whether or not you laugh at their jokes and you鈥檙e nice to them.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And it鈥檚 nice to hear people鈥檚 happy endings as well.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 People like Jameela Jamil talked about sex, you even went there, Frances. I thought it was great what she said about sex and sexual positions.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, there鈥檚 a special section on sex. It isn鈥檛 what I鈥檇 normally write about. You know, I write about Westminster policy most days. But I did it because sex is one of those taboos that people think it鈥檚 so unrelated to disability, so it felt really important to explicitly say this is something that disabled people care about too, just like anybody else, and we struggle at. And for Jameela it was because of her Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, that means that she鈥檚 always dated blokes who just like hanging out, relaxing around the house and would never pressurise her into doing anything physically that would hurt her. And as she said in the book, 鈥楢nd I would never do the same to them鈥�, and that鈥檚 always allowed her to set those boundaries.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, never do any positions that someone wants you to do if it鈥檚 actually going to hurt your body, if they want to make you do that then they鈥檙e not the right person for you.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, absolutely. The sex section looks about sex in so many different ways. It looks at things like accessible vibrators for example, the wonderful things that now exist that means if you can鈥檛, for example, have dexterity with your hands there are different options for that sort of self-pleasure. And really lifting that taboo and saying that you deserve to have access to that, and just because at school no one taught you that and just because large sections of the media tell you that you aren鈥檛 involved in this part of life, if you want to be there are absolutely options for you. And here are some brilliant women talking about their lives and what they do.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I just want to make it very clear that we鈥檙e moving on from sex now when we talk about this. A big theme in your book is that disabled women get a rougher deal than most other groups, even let鈥檚 say disabled men.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 think I do believe that disabled men have an easier deal, so to speak. I think it鈥檚 simply that because we鈥檙e women too we have to deal with two things: we have to deal with the ableism and we also have to deal with the sexism and misogyny too. So, it鈥檚 not that we鈥檙e discriminated against more based on our disability per se I think; I think it鈥檚 that we鈥檙e also dealing with all this extra stuff as well. Similarly in the sense that a black man who鈥檚 disabled will also be dealing with racism as well, in the way that I as a white woman won鈥檛.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, in the case of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome there is a stat that says men are diagnosed years earlier than women; women have to wait years longer than men for a diagnosis. Cherylee Houston, who鈥檚 been in Coronation Street, a really famous disabled actor, had a massive story around healthcare, didn鈥檛 she?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 I think most of us have come across some pretty awful treatment in healthcare at some point in our life. But Cherylee she shared a story about she鈥檇 been in pain since she was about nine years old, and nobody in the medical professional believed her, to the extent that when she was university in Manchester she went to a consultant and she thought now I鈥檓 in a big city maybe they鈥檒l have enough staff to actually believe me. And he just completely mocked her and told her that she wanted to be, in his words, handicapped to get attention. And it was just the most horrific thing to hear, but at the same time when you look at the statistics that I share in the book, though that鈥檚 an extreme example, it鈥檚 not particularly uncommon I don鈥檛 think that level of disbelief. Because I think we all know as women and we all know as disabled people that you鈥檙e simply not given the credit and autonomy and control over your life that other people are a lot of the time. People talk to you like you鈥檙e daft, like you鈥檙e a child, like you鈥檙e a complainer, in a way that you just don鈥檛 get if you present as a white non-disabled male a lot of the time. But again, I think one of the things that I tried to really do in the book wasn鈥檛 just to list a load of problems, but was to kind of bring in experts and to talk about okay, this is absolutely awful, we can鈥檛 accept this and it isn鈥檛 our responsibility as individuals to fix it, but in the meantime what are these things, what are these resources we can share within the disabled community to say what can we actually do right now to help each other.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what can we do in terms of healthcare then?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 How to get the best out of a medical appointment, taking a friend or a family member with you to make sure that you鈥檝e got a bit of support. Maybe practise in advance those phrases that you want to use. We lead with emotions as human beings, but doctors often just care about the practical stuff, so rather than saying something like, 鈥業鈥檓 really upset because of how much pain I鈥檓 in鈥� using a sentence like, 鈥楤eing in so much pain means I鈥檓 not able to get dressed several days a week, what can you do to help me with that?鈥� those sort of practical phrases, and 鈥榃hat is your plan for helping me with this?鈥� can be really useful.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 amazing. One of the big things we like to talk about on Access All is wellbeing and mental health of disabled people, people with health conditions. You spoke to some amazing experts in the book about that, but you also had your own advice to give, didn鈥檛 you?

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 Self-care and the wellness industry is a huge issue now, isn鈥檛 it? Like, you put on Instagram and there鈥檚 someone else offering you this amazing cold swimming you can do or this park run. And that鈥檚 fantastic, if you can do that and it鈥檚 great for you do it. But for those of us that are excluded from that stuff it just kind of feels bad I think that I鈥檓 struggling, but even the things that you鈥檙e offering me to do to help me feel better I can鈥檛 do. And funnily enough that makes me feel even worse. What can we do that鈥檚 actually suitable for us was a huge part of it. And I鈥檓 so glad that you liked those nuggets, because they sound little things but actually if you add them all up and find some things in your day-to-day life that you can do, no matter what your body or mind is doing that day, that鈥檚 a huge thing to have in your back pocket, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. Thank you so much, Frances Ryan. We鈥檝e done this over two days in two sections. I鈥檝e pushed my time limits and you told me your energy limits, and I鈥檓 really, really grateful. And thank you so much for speaking to me on Access All.

FRANCES-听听听听听听听听听 Thank you for having me, it鈥檚 been lovely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is it for this episode. It just remains for me to thank Frances Ryan for that super interesting chat, and also thank you to Jack Thorne for speaking to us exclusively earlier about that letter asking the government to stop planned cuts to disability benefits. If you have thoughts on this week鈥檚 episode please to get in touch with us. Our email is accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can send me a WhatsApp message, 0330 123 9480. We are on social media, Instagram and X @蜜芽传媒AccessAll. See you next time. Bye.

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