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4th June 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 162

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If, like me, access is often the excuse that you use for getting out of sport then I’m very sorry to tell you that there is a mega relay covering most of the length of the UK over the next few weeks and it focuses on inclusivity in sports. And I’ve got two of the people taking part in that relay with me now. We’ve got Jess Camburn-Rahmani and Dr Julie McElroy. Hello ladies.

JESS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Jess, this is your fault this relay, isn’t it? You’re the CEO of a charity called Cerebra.

JESS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cerebra is a very cool organisation. We do make bespoke equipment and toys for children. So, we start with what does the child want to do, and if they want to do adventurous things like surfing we can make a surfboard that meets their needs. We’re going to meet a little boy called Henry in Bridlington. He’s been working with us for a long time and he has an oxygen ventilator that he has to carry with him. And he’s an amazing cyclist so he has an adapted trailer that he carries his oxygen cylinder with him around wherever he goes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow. So, what’s this Relay Your My then?

JESS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Relay My Way is an incredible challenge starting in Glasgow and stretching all the way down through the country from Scotland, through England, into Wales, finishing up at the Windsor Parallel Festival of Inclusivity. It’s occurring over 33 days. And the idea of it is that there are many charity events which are not inclusive of people who have disabilities; we wanted to create a really fun and challenging concept for anybody who wanted to take part, whether they are fully able-bodied or have a disability. It’s running, it’s cycling, it’s wheeling, it’s surfing, it’s anything that children and families want to do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Dr Julie McElroy, you are one of these athletes who took part in the relay on day one and you ran with a frame for 2.5kms. How was that?Ìý

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it really captivated people’s imaginations along the route. I could see some people stopping their cars and looking at us, stop, clap, cheer. I was definitely out of my comfort zone because I had to navigate pavements, canal. I think the top speed that I got was 20 miles an hour.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý 20 miles an hour, wow! Like, is it a frame with some wheels that supports you while you run?

JULIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a frame like a tricycle without pedals. It’s just been announced that it will become a paralympic sport in Los Angeles 2028, so I’m absolutely delighted.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow, wow, wow! Frame running is going to be a Paralympic sport from 2028. You heard it first, guys. Jess, how can people take part?

JESS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý People can take part in the Relay, if they go to Relay Your Way and if they put it into any search engine it will come up. They can go there and sign up to any stage. There’s lots of different stages for whatever you want to do, whether that’s a short swim, whether that’s a short skate. We are also going to 30 different schools, many of them SEND schools, so we’ve got 9,000 children taking part as well, which is going to be an absolute joy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Great. Jess and Julie, thank you so much for telling me about Relay Your Way. Now on with the show.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the weekly disability and mental health podcast from ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News. Now, later in this episode I talk to Phil and his therapist, Julia, who let cameras into their therapy sessions for a ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ documentary. Phil lost his legs, had some body image issues, wanted to get back on the dating scene so Julia helped him with that. Now, listen to the end of this interview because you will hear something that even Julia didn’t know.

Just also to give you some advanced warning, with all these proposed changes to disability benefits coming up, the government’s vote which might cement those is just around the corner. We’re going to have a Q&A in the next couple of weeks with a panel of experts. Now, if you have any questions about the politics, about the timescales, about how these changes might impact you, get in touch, send us your questions. We are ready for them. We will put them to our panel. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or send it on a WhatsApp message, we’re on 0330 123 9480. And of course, if you haven’t done already, please do subscribe to Access All on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But first, Access All has heard that if you are planning a night out in Northern Ireland and if you happen to need an accessible taxi to get there chances are that you will struggle to get one after 6pm. The availability of accessible taxis felt so poor to one man in Northern Ireland that he conducted his own investigation into the situation and found some shocking realities, including that there are two accessible taxis, two, in the whole of Londonderry. That man is disability rights campaigner Dermot Devlin. Dermot, you’re very welcome to Access All. What’s the craic?

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you very much for inviting me on to talk about this today.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a pleasure to have you on. We’ve also got Stephen Anton from Fonacab, Northen Ireland’s biggest taxi service. Hi, Stephen.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good morning, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good morning. First of all, let’s just establish what an accessible taxi is. What does a taxi need for it to be absolutely known as an accessible cab?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In Northern Ireland taxis are classed in four different ways, class A, B, C and D. Class B taxis in Northern Ireland are those which are capable of transporting a wheelchair. Now, in many cases class B taxis look like a typical black London taxi, but it also might be something like a minivan or a multi-seater type minibus, anything up to nine seats, where the vehicle has been adapted to allow a passenger to travel while remaining in their wheelchair.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All right, Stephen, thank you for that. Let’s come to you, Dermot Devlin. Dermot, for context you have a rare condition which means that you describe yourself as being short and being a wheelchair user. Tell me about what it’s like using taxis in Northern Ireland for you?

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, any time of night trying to get a taxi it’s extremely difficult to get them, for various reasons, because they don’t work after 6 o’clock.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why do they not work after 6 o’clock, Dermot?

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We discovered that a lot of taxi drivers they were getting contract work from the health trusts to do hospital runs and doing contract work from the education board.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They were taking people to school and hospital and nursery, and then they were doing their day’s work and they were finishing, all the accessible taxis finishing at 6pm, which means that people who want to have a social life and need one can’t get one.

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly. It just meant that anybody who was a wheelchair user we had to stay home at night. Disabled people we do have a social life, but we just need the accessibility to get there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s your worst experience been with taxis in Northern Ireland, Dermot?

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Me and a friend went up to a concert in Belfast, it was a rock concert, we rang a few different depots and they didn’t have any vehicles available because they were stopping wheelchair taxis and using them to take large groups of people out.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, those nine-seaters that Stephen was talking about at the minute, they were using all of those seats so they weren’t being made available for people who use wheelchairs who need them. Can we talk a little about how many there are in Northern Ireland? Because the population is about just over 2 million. How many accessible taxis are there for 2 million people?

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There’s only about two. There was a loss of 350 drivers since COVID, which meant that reduced the number of accessible vehicle drivers. I think there are only about ten or 11 at the moment. I’m not sure what the numbers are in Belfast.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve been told that there are 350 fully accessible, wheelchair accessible taxis for a population of just over 2 million, which does sound like very few.

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I find it impossible now if I want to go out at night. Anybody who’s a wheelchair user has to decide when you go into town to get something or fancy going to the cinema. We have to plan a few days in advance to go out and enjoy ourselves.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which is very tricky in reality. You spoke to actually loads of people for this report. One of the people that you spoke to is Tony O’Reilly, and he sent us this voice message:

TONY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m a disabled person living in the city of Derry. I’m a person with cerebral palsy so if I’m out and I need to travel someone and I don’t have my carer or my driver the only thing I can use is a taxi. I used to take taxis on a regular basis before COVID; I don’t now. You have to wait much longer now for a taxi than you used to. Amber and I were at a play last year, we rang the taxi at a quarter to 11, the taxi didn’t come until 25 to one. That’s why I don’t go out after 4 o’clock in the afternoon because taking a taxi is too risky and possibly sometimes no way home.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much, Tony O’Reilly for your voice message there. Now, Stephen Anton, you’re communications manager at Fonacab, Northern Ireland’s biggest cab firm. Why are there so few accessible taxis?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There’s never actually been a huge amount of accessible taxis in Northern Ireland. The peak was actually about five years ago whenever there was 506. So, the drop from 506 to what it is now at 346 is roughly in line with the drop overall in taxi driver numbers in Northern Ireland.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a huge drop though in accessible taxis.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a huge drop overall, and that’s part of the problem as well. Taxi driver numbers overall have dropped by half in the last ten years.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And why is that?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s a number of reasons. In 2014 the department that regulates the taxi industry in Northern Ireland introduced new regulations, new tests for how you became a taxi driver, and as soon as those tests were introduced it became much harder to become a taxi driver. So, in an average year the industry loses about 1,200 drivers, but it brings in about 200, so we get a net loss of about 1,000 drivers overall a year in Northern Ireland.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, why do so few drivers who are there have accessible taxis? Because they own their own cars I’d imagine mostly.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re very right, taxi drivers by and large in Northern Ireland elsewhere they own their own vehicles. So, as a self-employed person it’s their option to choose whatever type of vehicle that they want. Now, up until 2017 in Northern Ireland there was a premium charged on the fare for a multi-seater or a wheelchair accessible vehicle. But in 2017, because of disability discrimination rules, that was removed. What that meant then from 2017 onwards, while a taxi driver was incurring huge costs for buying the vehicle, converting the vehicle, maintaining the vehicle and running a wheelchair accessible vehicle…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They weren’t getting any more back, they were getting that extra cost.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Stephen, why are there so few accessible taxis available after 6pm?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dermot’s right, taxi drivers by and large take contract work during the day. But having done a 12-hour day taking passengers back and forth to the likes of the renal unit in Belfast it’s an awful lot to ask them to work on then in the evenings. On top of that the other service provider for wheelchair users in the evenings, Disability Action Transport, they reduced their service hours in 2020 from finishing at 10pm to 6pm. And those reduced hours, reduced services have put further pressure on the taxi industry.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Stephen, what’s the solution in your opinion?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý First of all drivers need help in order to be able to purchase and convert these vehicles in the first place. There are grant schemes in other jurisdictions, for example in the Republic of Ireland the government there offered 17,000 euros to a driver for the purchase and conversion of a wheelchair vehicle. We’d like to see something like that here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All right, Stephen. In Northern Ireland the Department for Infrastructure looks after this, and their minister, Liz Kimmins, sent us this statement:

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I recognise that the availability of wheelchair accessible taxis is a significant issue affecting those who rely on this type of transport for their daily work and personal independence. I have recently announced a phased review of taxi policy and legislation which will seek to find solutions around the lack of access to wheelchair accessible vehicles. My department also funds community transport which I intend to fully fund this year and is a lifeline for many people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Anyone got any comments on that statement from Liz Kimmins? Let’s start with you, Stephen?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We actually met with the minister last week, and one of the things that we said as part of this review was first of all we’re delighted to see that the review has come about and that wheelchair accessible vehicles is one of the first two priorities as part of this. However, there’s already legislation there, and if the consultation and the work on wheelchair accessible taxis isn’t going to start for another year, and then the legislation they’re hoping to bring in after that is after that we’re going to run out of time in this current mandate. Why not use the existing legislation and do something now?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Dermot?

DERMOT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I welcome the statement that the minister made but, as Stephen said, there’s only two years left in her mandate and it leaves a very, very limited amount of time to do what needs to be done.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ll be keeping an eye on this because I reckon this topic is going to have loads of our listeners chomping at the bit to tell us their stories of taxis in their area and issues around that if you're a wheelchair user or have a different impairment. So, Dermot, thank you so much for sharing your findings with us from Northern Ireland. And thanks also to Stephen Anton from Fonacab and to minister Liz Kimmins.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, this is the bit of the podcast where I get to talk directly to you, it’s just you and me. And I wanted to tell you about a powerful video that I caught on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Ideas website this week. It’s called Deaf Behind Bars and it explores what life is like in prison for deaf inmates. Now, one of those featured is a BSL user. English is not his first language. He said that prison left him feeling completely isolated. And there’s another woman in the video who was a prison officer and became a prisoner and she wasn’t allowed the batteries for her hearing aids. It’s really, really interesting. Here’s a clip:

[Clip]

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Everything feels that little bit more frightening. [Banging, bells and shouting] Everyone has their own opinions on how hard prison should be, but with a disability it shouldn’t be any harder. I worked as a prison officer, so I was in jail on a daily basis. I then committed an offence and I spent three years and three months in prison. I wear hearing aids in both ears. I’d taken with me a supply of batteries. When I arrived at the reception area I was told that I wouldn’t be allowed to have those batteries with me. But then without them switched on I felt really vulnerable because I couldn’t then hear what was going on around me.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Prison environments they’re really run on sound, so not only do have you lots of voices going on at the same time but you have alarms, bells, tannoys, all making noise in the prison environment. And so if you can’t access that it means that you can’t hear if there’s a fire alarm going off, so it makes you more at risk.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you can’t hear what’s happening outside of your cell door or what might be coming you feel even less in control of your own surrounding.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The video is just over five minutes long and it is really, really worth your time. You can find it by looking for the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Ideas website, which is a collaboration between the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ and the Open University. And then within that looking for Deaf Behind Bars.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Natasha emailed me, she is a deaf doctor who runs a deaf insights organisation called IDA. And their aim is to improve the outcomes and experiences of deaf people within the healthcare system. Natasha says she enjoys the podcast because it helps her understand the lives of other disabled people, and also it helps her keep up to date with the issues that the disabled community is interested in. So, thank you so much, Natasha. And actually we have Dr Grace Spence Green, a wheelchair using doctor, coming up on the podcast in the next couple of weeks, so hopefully you’ll enjoy that. And also after the inquest into the death of deaf influencer, Imogen Nunn, some of the findings of that said that some deaf people were not treated well within the mental health community, so it’s really good to talk about that. And thank you for helping to shape our podcast, Natasha.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, there you go, if you want to talk to me send me a message. Email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can send us a WhatsApp, 0330 123 9480.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is a TV show on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ iPlayer just now called Change Your Mind, Change Your Life, and it’s all about therapy. It’s presented by Matt and Emma Willis and it follows members of the public who see top mental health professionals for therapy and counselling, and they do it in front of the TV cameras. One of the brave souls who had their therapy sessions filmed was Phil. Phil, you’re with me. Hi.

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, how are you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m good, thank you. Phil had both of his legs amputated in recent years, and he wanted some help with body image so that he could start dating again. Also with me is the therapist he saw in the show, psychotherapist and grief expert, Julia Samuel. Hi Julia.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, lovely to be here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Phil, where are you talking to us from today please?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I’m in Spain. A group of us from the rehab centre have decided to go on holiday. So, there’s four amputees, and there’s one lad who’s brought all his family as well, so there’s 14 of us in total.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow! Everybody’s equipment make it through the airport all right?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, just about, yeah. The weather is gorgeous and it’s really nice.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, let’s move on to the show that you took part in, Change Your Mind, Change Your Life. Tell me a little bit about life before you had to have your legs amputated?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was a chef, fairly successful, just about to open a restaurant in my home town. I was admitted to hospital, rushed in, and sepsis had set in and I lost my right leg below the knee, and that was in 2019. And then everything changed from then: I couldn’t do the job I was doing in the past, had to refigure out what I wanted to do with my life and how I was going to manage if I was permanently in a wheelchair. So, everything changed to be fair.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then you had to get the other leg amputated and from an infection as well?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Well, you overcompensate with the left leg, so obviously I had an issue, I started running and I got a blister which developed into an ulcer, which then developed into an infection in the whole of the foot. So, in 2022 I decided to have that one amputated below the knee. And since then I’ve never looked back really with the health side of myself.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, that was a decision, they weren’t planning to amputate it. Why did you decide to do that?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because they wanted to take big chunks out of the foot and toes and all sorts, and I just thought I can’t keep going back and forwards to hospital again for the next two or three years, however long it might take. And I just thought for my own peace of mind and my own mental health I decided to have it off below the knee.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right. And tell me a bit about your life in the first year or two after that. You said you had to change everything. What did you do?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I struggled. I lost my job. I was relying on people to take me to hospital appointments. I completely lost my own independence.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And did you get any therapy for that back then?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I had a bit of CBT.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, cognitive behavioural therapy?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. It’s very directive, it’s like oh, get up and make your bed and have a shower, and sets yourselves goals. I do that anyway so I just didn’t think it was the right kind of therapy for me. I needed more the emotional side, which it didn’t provide, to be fair.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And nobody was offering you that?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Julia, does that happen a lot? Do many people either not get therapy after they’ve become disabled or they get the wrong therapy maybe?

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s very individual and on one level unique. But I think it’s probably extremely common, Phil’s story, that the psychological impact of a massive loss and trauma like losing his legs isn’t fully taken on board. CBT is an effective therapy, I think particularly for addictions, for smoking. But Phil, I hope you're all right with me saying this, I think in some ways your capacity to get up and move and keep going was really important, but it was also the thing that meant that you didn’t deal with the psychological wound because you are so good at putting on a show.

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think, I mean we did get Phil’s description of CBT, but I think we should probably get a psychotherapist’s brief description of what it is.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, CBT is cognitive behavioural therapy, which is if I change my thinking it will change my feeling, and that will change my behaviour. So, if you’re someone who has what I call a shitty community, you keep saying to yourself I’m an idiot, I’m an idiot, you’ll then feel like an idiot, you go to your interview and you behave like an idiot. So, if you change it to I’m good enough, I can apply for this job, you have the feeling I’m good enough and that will affect how you are in the interview.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know all about that committee, Julia.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs]. Phil, let’s go on with your story. You did a really smashing job of getting yourself back – excuse the pun here – on your feet. You went back to university. But you wanted some body image help because you wanted to start dating, right?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did, yeah. Before I went to obviously therapy with Julia I had a voice that kept telling me I was half a person, circus freak when I looked in the mirror and things like that. And so I had this derogatory voice and so that’s held me back from going out on dates because I felt like if I did get rejection it would be because of the legs, not anything else.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, you were saying some horrible things to yourself. How would you both describe the therapy sessions that you did for the programme?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was really sceptical at first because I just couldn’t find a way that Julia was going to reconnect me with my body image and my legs, because they’d gone. It’s not like I was 20 stone, I could have a gastric band and transform myself; I just couldn’t understand how she was going to reconnect myself with me. And then all of a sudden it just felt that Julia listened, cared and built a rapport with me, and I just opened up. And I just found it really easy for me to talk to Julia, and that was the main thing to be fair.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And Julia, what was going on in your mind?

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, I think that the main thing that enables you to be able to work with someone effectively is building trust. And so when Phil says that he felt that I was listening and that I cared, I mean it’s genuine, [laughs]; that’s my job as therapist is to listen and to care. And that in and of itself I think is very powerful.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve spoken to lots and lots of disabled people about mental health and therapy over the years. How do you find the right therapist for you?

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think my job is to build the rapport. So, I create the environment where I am not judging, where I’m empathic, where I’m genuine. And if I can do that that facilitates a space where he sees witnessed and seen and heard and known, and that then creates a trust in himself to be able to trust the aspects of himself that they don’t dare look at on their own.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And Phil, did the therapy work? And what kind of strategies have you taken from it?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. I think the connectivity of the dark side of the voice it was me protecting myself was a bit of a light bulb moment. I was able to quieten down that voice. It’s still there and it’s still there today, but it’s not as loud as it was and it’s not as controlling as it was.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One of the things you said you do is you go off for a loud scream every now and again.

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we found out obviously during the sessions that I still had a lot of anger from losing the legs and how I lost them and things like that. So, I take myself off to Fairhaven Lake in Lytham and I sit in the car and I just scream at the steering wheel and bash it and whatever. The first time I did it it lasted for nearly 45 minutes. I think I’m down to about five now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow, your steering wheel will thank Julia for that I’d imagine.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Philip, you wanted to date. Have you gone on a date?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have, yes.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have you? I don’t know that. I’m so excited.

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s news. Look at you laughing away. Wow.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] tell us about it.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah!

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just I went on a date. I already knew the lady obviously in question and I just asked her and she said yes. And we’ve just been dating since then. It’s been about one and a half months.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And did you have to give yourself any talkings to about the legs as you moved further into your relationship?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, because that voice is quieter now than it’s ever been. And like I said to Julia during the session, I’m holding its hand and I’m taking it on a journey.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s beautiful. And you’ve actually decided to study psychotherapy and counselling.

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I qualify in the next few weeks.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, amazing! And you work with amputees; what kind of special skills do you bring to that?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I volunteer for the Amputation Foundation, so they refer people to me who are pre- and post-op, dealing with issues from practical issues as well as emotional issues. And we just talk about where they’re at and how far they’ve come and just help them on a journey that it’s a slow process. We can’t rush these things with especially the emotional side of losing the legs and stuff like that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And is there a bit of grief as well, you know Julia being a grief specialist?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, because I think you have to go through the process. It’s a grieving process of the past life that you’ve had and then the acceptance that you’ve no longer got a leg or an arm or whatever, and then the acceptance of the life you’ve got moving forward. And you’re trying to help those people to achieve that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wonderful. Thank you so much. Change Your Mind, Change Your Life is on iPlayer now. And thank you very much to Phil and Julia Samuel. And Phil, you can now go and enjoy the rest of your holiday.

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you very much. Nice to see you again.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Phil?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve been dating two and a half months?

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing.

PHIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When obviously the series ended and stuff I just thought just give it a go, if it doesn’t happen it doesn’t happen and if it does it does. And I just thought just give it a go, give it a chance. Like I said, I opened myself up to the therapy sessions and I just thought yeah, you’ve got to experience something different, and I just thought right, just go for it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Proud therapist, Julia?

JULIA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, very proud.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]. What a lovely way to end an interview. That was just about it for this episode. You can subscribe to us, please do, on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds. You go in there and search for Access All. And you can find us on social media; we’re over there on X and on Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. See you next time. Bye.

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