蜜芽传媒

19th June 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 164

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hello Paul Carter, you鈥檙e very welcome to Access All.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you for having me, it鈥檚 a pleasure to be back.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Shall we talk about one of my favourite headlines from this week, I think one of yours too, 鈥渟hopping centre in Nottinghamshire have decided to limit scooter speed to four miles per hour.鈥�

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. My favourite bit about this is 鈥渁 spate of near misses.鈥� Have you seen this?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I mean what kind of scooter racing shenanigans have been going on in Nottinghamshire?!

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 I can鈥檛 actually decide what鈥檚 funnier, as in do we think there鈥檚 one singular person that鈥檚 responsible for this carnage in the shopping centre, or is the Idlewells Shopping Centre in Nottinghamshire cursed by an army of reckless mobility scooter riders?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 going to go with the second.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Although you had a scooter in university, didn鈥檛 you?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 I had a power chair, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Did you have a spate of near misses across campus?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 I did have more than a spate of near misses, and not so near misses, well hits I guess. I was a pretty reckless driver. I mean obviously mixing students and power chairs probably isn鈥檛 the best idea. There was I think a slightly epochal story, but I don鈥檛 believe this is true, my friends tell me there was a story in the local paper when I was a student of a power chair user obstructing traffic in the early hours of the morning and police were called, and by the time the police arrived the person had disappeared into the night. And that鈥檚 been falsely ascribed to me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And was anyone able to describe the person? Because you鈥檙e pretty describable.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] Well, I don鈥檛 think the local paper went quite that far. Anyway, it wasn鈥檛 me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh, it wasn鈥檛 you. Are you sure?!

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Now listen, the other interesting thing to me is the four miles per hour. I mean you have to be going at a bit of a click when you鈥檙e walking to get to four miles per hour, and in a shopping centre you wouldn鈥檛 necessarily always be doing that unless you鈥檙e lost and desperately trying to find the way out, like each bit of it. What was your speed like in your power chair do you think?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 I never actually measured it, but probably about that, yeah, it was pretty quick. They鈥檙e quite difficult to control, you know they鈥檙e quite sensitive, and people always think, 鈥極h, that looks really easy,鈥� and then they get in and try and drive it and crash it into a door or a window or whatever.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Or a big rack of very expensive pottery maybe?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Indeed. Indeed, yeah. So I don鈥檛 know, I kind of want to see the CCTV.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 what we need to do, we need to request it with an FOI and have a good look at it for next time. I think some scooters go up to like six or seven miles per hour, don鈥檛 they, so I guess there was some sort of room for that spate of near misses.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 And they鈥檙e pretty weighty as well, you wouldn鈥檛 want to be clobbered by one that鈥檚 doing seven miles an hour I wouldn鈥檛 imagine.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 very true. And I wouldn鈥檛 see it coming either so we鈥檇 have a problem. See, this is the thing, sometimes disabled people don鈥檛 gel with each other. I鈥檓 blind, slowly walking round with my cane trying to find a shop to no avail, someone comes along seven miles an hour straight in the back of me and that鈥檚 the end.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Oil and water. Oil and water.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oil and water.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the weekly podcast where you will find the best disability interviews, news and discussion. Later I鈥檒l be chatting to disabled comedian Rosie Jones about her new sitcom Pushers, alongside co-star Ruben Reuter. But first, you鈥檝e heard him already, he is a 蜜芽传媒 journalist and presenter, joining me to talk through the headlines is Paul Carter. Hello, Paul.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello. I appreciate the big build-up, thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Woo-woo-woo-woo! I didn鈥檛 even get to say what we can find you in. We can find you in TechNow, is that right, on 蜜芽传媒, used to be Click?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 TechNow, yeah. I鈥檓 in too many places to be honest. TechNow, yeah, and then TechXplore, which is on 蜜芽传媒 News and iPlayer, and also a new programme, World鈥檚 Greatest Train Journeys, which is quite exciting.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay, you like trains do you then, Paul?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 I love a train.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Ah, that鈥檚 nice. Tell me about the headlines that have caught your attention this week.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, there鈥檚 quite a lot of disability stuff around in the news this week. A bit of a warning, most of it isn鈥檛 the most uplifting or happy of stories.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 We have literally had to put in a particularly positive element to the podcast because the stories are often so gloomy, so this is not news to me.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean there鈥檚 lots and lots of stuff, as you would expect, across the papers on the various developments in benefit reform and whether any concessions might be made on that going forward. But just to look at a few of the other things that are kicking around, The Sun are saying that Jamie Borthwick from EastEnders is set to return to Albert Square. He was suspended recently after allegedly making a disablist slur on the set of Strictly. In The Telegraph, 鈥渆nd of life care must improve before assisted dying.鈥� And also in The Telegraph, they鈥檙e reporting that talks to solve the social care funding crisis have quietly been abandoned. Baroness Casey is choosing to have an independent body to assist with the social care review, rather than by having across party talks, as was previously on the table.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Thanks Paul, that was pretty grim actually.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] Sorry about that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And just to keep the tone sort of serious, maybe we鈥檒l just pop back to the welfare bill for a minute. Sir Keir Starmer has offered some concessions to the backbenchers who are rebelling against planned cuts to disability benefits. He said that once people鈥檚 benefits have changed, they have a 13 week period before those benefits are stopped, instead of the four weeks that there are at the moment. That鈥檚 one concession he鈥檚 given. But he鈥檚 keen to put the bill through, isn鈥檛 he?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, absolutely. And there鈥檚 a lot of talk and a lot of licks coming out of whether these concessions are going to be enough to stop Labour MPs rebelling against it, some saying it鈥檚 not. I think that鈥檚 a watch this space, I think.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And the second reading might happen on 3rd July specifically, so let鈥檚 see if that鈥檚 what happens. At that stage the bill is debated in the House of Commons and a vote is taken. And then Paul, there is so much more. It鈥檚 so complicated, I don鈥檛 know how much more you want to know, how much more you can take in. There鈥檚 a third reading, which could take ages or it could take one day, depending on the type of process they put in place. It is unwieldy and it does feel complicated, but we鈥檙e going to be across it all for you on Access All. And hopefully we鈥檒l be able to bring it to you as it happens, the changes, and when it goes through Parliament, and it when it gets to the House of Lords etc, if indeed it does go to the House of Lords. Intriguing.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 And one other headline I saw that is away from welfare which I found quite interesting, obviously I鈥檓 a tech reporter so this flagged up to my interest, it鈥檚 the AI therapy bots. Several scientists and psychiatry experts are warning that they could give dangerous advice to people that are using them for therapy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Do people use them for therapy?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I think some people are. The major kind of AI players, ChatGPT and the like say not to do that, but there are other AI providers that are providing so-called specialist therapy chatbots, and it鈥檚 a pretty unregulated world at the moment.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Would you use it? Would you encourage people to use it? You know a lot about AI at this stage I鈥檇 imagine from your work?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean look, it鈥檚 not something I would use. It鈥檚 one of them things you can certainly see the potential for it, right. I鈥檓 just not 100% convinced we鈥檙e in that place yet.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Why?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, because I just don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 reliable enough.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e the tech expert here, Paul, I certainly am not.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Allegedly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What would you use? What do you think AI can be used for reliably maybe as a disabled person?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 It has so much potential, and that鈥檚 a word we keep using, so much potential, and I think we鈥檙e starting to see a lot of that potential realised in description, in navigation, also in being able to write stuff and summarise stuff and make things easier to understand. I have to admit, and this is probably going to surprise a lot of people, I鈥檓 a little bit of a luddite when it comes to AI.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What?! You鈥檙e like one of the 蜜芽传媒鈥檚 most prominent tech journalists. How did that happen?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] I鈥檓 still struggling to find a use case that kind of works for me personally.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I have found ways that it鈥檚 been quite cool for me. I never thought I鈥檇 say this in real life or on a podcast or whatever, but I have new glasses.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 blind, I鈥檝e been blind from birth, and I鈥檝e got new glasses. What鈥檚 that about?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, go on. I think I know what you鈥檙e going to say, but tell me about your glasses, what are they?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 They鈥檙e smart glasses. They鈥檙e wearables I think they call them.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And they can tell me what鈥檚 around me. If I look at a flower, they can tell me what it is, that鈥檚 quite nice. They can describe a scene. They read me my messages. I can reply. I can take videos and photos.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 You should have worn them for the podcast, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I mean I can show you them if you want?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Hmmm. This is exciting, isn鈥檛 it, real-time reveal!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 My eyes move round a lot, so people who look at me are used to my eyes sort of, I mean I鈥檓 not going to say rattling around my head but, you know, moving around a bit, and I look like a blind person.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Here we go, I鈥檓 going to have to describe this to the people that can鈥檛 see. Oh wow! Oh, I like those, they really suit you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh, I forgot the best part! The best part, Paul Carter, is Judy Dench is the voice.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Sorry, what?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Judy Dench. You know the voice that reads out whatever I want it to tell me, my glasses, it鈥檚 Judy Dench!

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Actual Judy Dench, not someone who sounds like her?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 actual Judy Dench. Honest to god, the name of the voice is Judy Dench.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 She tells me the weather. She鈥檚 adorable.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Have you had any weird stuff, any weird comments? Do people think like you鈥檙e videoing them or anything like that?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It will come, this is the problem, but at the moment people are like, 鈥淥h, you鈥檒l know where I am in the cafe because you鈥檙e wearing your glasses, you know you鈥檒l be able to do this,鈥� because they think there鈥檚 ongoing description of my surroundings, whereas actually have to take a photo to get it to describe. Right, so I鈥檓 going to take a photo and see if you can hear it. [Takes photo] Look and tell me what you see.

FEMALE-听听听听听 I see a radio studio with various equipment and devices. There is a clock on the wall and several monitors and screens displaying different information. There are also various buttons, knobs and levers on the control panel.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 good, she鈥檚 reading me the stuff that鈥檚 in the studio, that鈥檚 quite cool. But it鈥檚 just that it鈥檚 Judy Dench really.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e listening to Access All, and we are available on 蜜芽传媒 Sounds. Go on there and subscribe to us if you haven鈥檛 done so already. You can listen to our back catalogue and get each new episode as it drops onto your device every single week. And we do have some interviews coming up exclusively on the podcast feed, so another reason to subscribe so that you don鈥檛 miss those.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media, and read our articles on the 蜜芽传媒 news website.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Pushers is a new Channel 4 comedy series which follows a motley crew of disabled people who unexpectedly pivot from being charity volunteers to cocaine dealers. Intriguing, right? Fortunately for me, two of the stars of the show, comedian Rosie Jones who also wrote Pushers, and actor Ruben Reuter, are with me to tell me all about it. How are you both doing?

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Hello. Yeah, how are you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 really well. It鈥檚 nice to have you in person. And Ruben, it鈥檚 lovely to have you as well. Let鈥檚 talk a little bit about who you both are first, both complete disability legends I would say. Rosie is a standup comedian, you鈥檝e been on all the best panel shows, you鈥檝e had your own stand-up tour, you鈥檝e made a documentary, but this is your first fully written series where you also star, yes?

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Which is an absolute dream come true. I mean right from deciding to become a comedian, I feel like writing and having your own sitcom is the ultimate. And I mean it鈥檚 not been easy, we鈥檝e been writing and developing it now for several years, so to be able to now be at a point where it鈥檚 out and we can talk about it, yeah, it鈥檚 brilliant.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 A bit of a relief. And also, amazing to have such brilliant disabled cast onboard as well, because we鈥檝e got Ruben here who reports for Channel 4 News, was in C蜜芽传媒鈥檚 The Dumping Ground for years and years playing Finn, which lots and lots of people will know and love. What was it like, Ruben, working together with Rosie on this show?

RUBEN-听听听听听听听 Rosie鈥檚 actually marvellous, and she looks out for everyone.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And Rosie, what was it like working with Ruben and the other disabled performers? And non-disabled, obviously.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 It was so brilliant. Actually from the start, me and my co-writer, Peter, were so passionate about making sure that we represented so many different types of disability. Because when you have three/four/five disabled characters in one sitcom, it opens you up to talking more about who that person is beyond their disability. It鈥檚 incredibly freeing, and it made for such a rich diverse group of people.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 hear a bit of what they sound like. Here is a clip from the trailer of Pushers.

[Clip]

FEMALE-听听听听听 Do you regularly soil yourself?

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 write that, [inaudible].

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Look who it is, Emily Dawkins.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Give me fifty squid and deliver this.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 [Inaudible] a bit dodgy.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Name me one person who鈥檚 ever died from drugs.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 You lot.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Am I in trouble?

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Of course not.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 The ideal drug mule is a girl with an obvious disability.

FEMALE-听听听听听 Who else did you have in mind for this organised crime group? [Gun shots]

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Welcome to the inner rectum.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Sanctum.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So that trailer kind of shows how Emily, Rosie your character, gets into the situation where she was a charity volunteer and is then a cocaine dealer. Why did you want to write Pushers, something about I want to say people doing criminal activity?

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Even now when trying to [inaudible], society underestimates disabled people and what we鈥檙e capable of, and not only is it a funny and joyful premise, but we鈥檙e actually saying something about society not taking us seriously, and actually disabled people using the system to get their own way. So I feel like that is true equality, disabled drug dealers.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 The character, Emily, that you play, actually gets into it when her benefits are cut after an appeal, and obviously benefits and government鈥檚 plans for changes and getting people back into work is very high up in the news at the moment.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 We actually wrote every episode of the series during the Tory Government, so let鈥檚 show us really a comment on how the Tory Government treated disabled people. And it won鈥檛 surprise anyone here but I voted Labour, I鈥檓 very liberal and left, so when Labour got elected last year, personally I was elated. But in terms of the show, knowing that it wasn鈥檛 coming out until June 鈥�25, I thought we鈥檒l be a year into a Labour Government-

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Will it be relevant?

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, we鈥檒l be living in a utopia for disabled people. Turns out June 鈥�25 is here and unfortunately we need a show like this more than ever.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Do you think, Rosie, that disabled people, or have you ever heard of any disabled people turn to crime? Maybe not cocaine dealing necessarily, but because they鈥檝e felt kind of pushed down by society, or because they don鈥檛 have enough money because they鈥檝e lost their benefits, or they鈥檝e given up on the legitimate route of getting what they need.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 Well, I don鈥檛 have any firsthand experience of disabled people turning to crime yet, but I do a lot of work with the excellent Shaw Trust.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Food banks鈥� charity, yeah.

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 The food banks are seeing a real rise in terms of disabled people coming to food banks as a result of having their benefits cut. So definitely out there right now if you鈥檙e disabled and you鈥檙e working class, it really is a struggle.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Ruben, tell me a bit about you character Harry, what鈥檚 he like?

RUBEN-听听听听听听听 Basically my character is unique. He likes to dance. He鈥檚 a filmmaker, and he wants to work on TV. He likes to dress up with different characters. And I think he鈥檚 bored in the shop.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 In the shop that they all work in at the start?

RUBEN-听听听听听听听 Yeah, yeah. So he鈥檚 a bit bored in the shop, so he wants to break free and he鈥檚 up for anything.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh brilliant. He sounds like one to watch, for sure. Now listen, I feel a bit like the reason that a whole pile of disabled people were assembled as a dream team of drug dealers, was because or at least partly because it was thought that maybe they could get away with it a bit more, and that people might not think that someone with cerebral palsy or someone with down syndrome like Ruben has, would do something like that. So it made me think, what鈥檚 the best thing that you鈥檝e gotten away with because of being visibly disabled? Ruben?

RUBEN-听听听听听听听 Okay, so getting away with things, it is the dinner ladies at school always give me an extra pudding, so that鈥檚 a plus! [Laughs]

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 a good one.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Rosie?

ROSIE-听听听听听听听听听 I need to say I鈥檓 a big drinker and a big clubber, so if I get to a nightclub and I see a long queue outside, I absolutely play the disabled card, I go right to the front and I get myself on that dancefloor with a bit of tequila, job鈥檚 a good鈥檜n.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. Dead right too. Pushers starts on 19th June at 10.00 pm on Channel 4 on TV and streaming as well.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Thanks so much to Rosie Jones and Ruben Reuter there. Loved the end of that interview where they talked about what they鈥檝e gotten away with because they are visibly disabled. And having you, another visibly disabled person in the studio today, Paul, I need to ask what have you got away with because you鈥檙e disabled?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Similar to Rosie in a lot of ways. I travel a lot for the various programmes that I make, so I make full use of it at airports to be able to skip all kinds of lines and queues and various things like that. But in terms of perhaps more audaciously getting away with stuff, I鈥檓 going to make myself sound like I was some sort of teenage tearaway, but back in the day in the dark mists of time when I was younger, I used to go to a lot of gigs and festivals, and me and my best mate had a ruse basically where we would use my impairment to blag our way backstage. And it was a lot more successful than you would imagine that it actually would be!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Who have you met by doing that?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh god, most of the Britpop luminaries back in the day. I have a whole selection of photographs of me with people like Liam Gallagher, Richard Ashcroft, yeah, all of the classics. Basically we used to go 鈥� I鈥檓 not sure I should be admitting to this on such a platform.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh no, walk me through it. What did you, how did you do it?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 We used to go to the bit where they had the security standing and you鈥檙e only going to get through if you had the lanyards etc, and basically say that I had to use the special disabled toilets backstage because I couldn鈥檛 use the ones that were out in the main venue. Which was obviously nonsense, but the number of times it worked. We would say, 鈥淲e only want to come in to use the toilet and then we鈥檒l come straight back out,鈥� and of course we never did.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Wow! And did you chat to them? What did you tell the famous people that you were backstage?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I just used to be open about it, completely front it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Did they think it was like a 鈥淢ake a Wish鈥� thing or something?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Or competition winner, Paul Carter, gets to meet Liam Gallagher.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 You see, if my 16 year old brain had been smarter, that鈥檚 what I should have gone with.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I love that. Mine is actually festival related as well, you know. And again, I shouldn鈥檛 really admit this. I think I鈥檝e told the story to people before to be honest. I was basically the booze mule going into festivals. Very expensive booze, warm beer at festivals, so people have been known to try and bring in their own, and they鈥檇 search the bags. But mine, if it got searched at all, it would be like a little look in the top of it. So we would hide the drinks underneath my rain jacket and stuff and bring it in. And same when I used to go out with the cool kids, they鈥檇 be smoking fags, I wouldn鈥檛 be, out into the playground, and we used to go behind a shed. We got caught one day, and I used to always have my laptop bag with me, so when we got caught they would shove all their cigarettes into my laptop bag. So basically I was taken 鈥� what do you call it?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Taken advantage of.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Taken advantage of basically. But it gave me a little bit of kudos so I didn鈥檛 mind at the time. I鈥檇 just joined a new school, I needed a bit of help with getting in with the cool crowd, so that鈥檚 what we did.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 So you turned to smuggling to achieve that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I basically was a smuggler, yeah, pretty much.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But I鈥檓 such a goodie-goodie though. Nowadays I don鈥檛 know how much I鈥檇 get away with. The odd First Class on a train and stuff, that鈥檚 it really.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 I should stress, I no longer lie to get into areas that I shouldn鈥檛 be getting into. Yeah, you鈥檙e right. That鈥檚 funny, isn鈥檛 it, you鈥檝e mentioned First Class on trains. I鈥檝e had that a lot as well, you sit down and they say, 鈥淲ould you like to sit in First Class?鈥� and it鈥檚 like, 鈥淥kay, I鈥檓 not going to say no. But I think the only reason you鈥檙e doing that is because I鈥檓 disabled.鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 If you end up in First Class for an accessibility reason, then the food comes round and you have to decide whether to eat it or not. You鈥檝e been put in there because it鈥檚 the best place for you to sit to get assistance at the other end and then they鈥檙e like, 鈥淒o you want your dinner?鈥� and I鈥檓 like, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 know鈥� because I鈥檓 not supposed to be here.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Totally. It鈥檚 a really guilt thing, isn鈥檛 it? It鈥檚 like I haven鈥檛 paid for this, am I allowed to touch it? Especially when they just put it down and you leave it sitting there. Sometimes do you wait for the ticket person to come through and then once they鈥檝e checked your ticket, then you can sort of go for it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 like a dog being told that they can eat their dinner, isn鈥檛 it? [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Once the ticket man says it鈥檚 okay, I can tuck into my pie or whatever it is, or have a free drink or whatever. I will go with the free tea, I feel like a cup of tea is okay.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I don鈥檛 think they鈥檙e going to boot you out for a cup of tea.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 No, absolutely not. Paul, why do disabled people get away with more stuff?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 I think it鈥檚 a double-edged thing, isn鈥檛 it? One, I think it鈥檚 people want to do nice things and think that they鈥檙e somehow doing us a favour I guess and doing the right thing, But also, it鈥檚 this sort of presumption that we couldn鈥檛 possibly be anything other than 100% upstanding members of society, which obviously both yourself and myself are.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Absolutely we are. And I think people feel, and I鈥檓 going to go with this because I think you need to take some perks 鈥� tell me if I鈥檓 wrong 鈥� but I think people think they deserve it, there鈥檚 some bits of their lives is quite tricky or they find other stuff hard, maybe they can just skip a queue or have a free whatever.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And I think that they鈥檙e completely right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. Do you think that disabled people got away with more things in the past than they do now because of like security and maybe more awareness?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I鈥檇 say so. I think it was a bit of a free-for-all when I was a kid. But maybe that鈥檚 just because I was bolder and more willing to try and get away with stuff.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You were the first one they鈥檇 seen out in the community.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, totally. [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been great having you.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Aww really? It鈥檚 gone so quickly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e really, really enjoyed our chat.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听 Same.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And thank you to you for listening. You can contact us, accessall@bbc.co.uk is our email address, we鈥檙e on X and we鈥檙e on Instagram @蜜芽传媒AccessAll. Don鈥檛 forget to comment on the videos that we pop up there, and you can even, Paul, get in touch with us on the WhatsApp, which I love, I love getting voice messages. You can send them to me, or you can send a text, with the word 鈥渁ccess鈥� at the beginning of the message. Our number is 0330 123 9480. Bye.

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