蜜芽传媒

09th July 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� Emergency Episode 03

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hello. This is another emergency episode of Access All with me, Emma Tracey. The bill that鈥檚 now known as the Universal Credit Bill was debated in the House of Commons this afternoon, it was voted through this evening and could become law one month today. As it stands, future claimants of the Universal Credit health top-up from April next year will receive 拢50 per week, and that鈥檚 instead of the 拢97 per week that current claimants get. And that will be frozen, so it won鈥檛 go up with inflation. This bill has caused a lot of heartache and debate over the last few weeks, so we will gently walk you through what it means as it stands after today鈥檚 happenings. Here is just a flavour of what happened today in the House of Commons.

[Clip]

MALE-听听听听听听听听听 This isn鈥檛 compassion. We owe it to these individuals and to the welfare state鈥檚 founding principles to fix this problem. We cannot avoid change or fall back on impractical slogans, that would abandon those who most need help. Yet that is what these amendments do.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听 We acknowledge there needs to be reform of the welfare system. We need to chase down the cost of this. But this is not the way to do it.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 start by talking to Isabella McRae, a journalist who writes about welfare reform for The Big Issue. Hi, Isabella.

ISABELLA-听听 Hi.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 The government won the vote tonight, didn鈥檛 they. So what are the next steps for this bill?

ISABELLA-听听 Yeah. It鈥檚 my understanding that this bill will be certified as a money bill by the speaker, and that means that effectively it will surpass the House of Lords鈥� scrutiny, and that means that peers will have no power to ask MPs to consider amendments. The bill will become law a month from today after a full sped up lords鈥� passage. If it was going through the normal process, by comparison it would have gone to the House of Lords for a first reading, second reading, committee stage, report stage, and then eventually a third reading with it gaining royal ascent after any ping-pong on amendments from the lords. But regardless of that, it is important to note that the changes themselves aren鈥檛 going to take place until next year. Those key Universal Credit changes are happening in April next year, is my understanding of it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Right, okay. There were some amendments to the bill, there were some changes to the bill last week.

ISABELLA-听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So that must mean that disabled people won鈥檛 be affected very much now by this current bill?

ISABELLA-听听 I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 necessarily the case. The real concern is the Universal Credit cuts to the health element, they will only affect new claimants. But new claimants will see their benefits, their specific part of the health element, slashed in half and then frozen for the next four years after that. And claimants who are new under the age of 22, will also lose their support entirely. Now that鈥檚 expected to affect 750,000 people by the end of the decade, and these people will lose an average of 拢3,000 a year. So there really are concerns that it still will impact disabled people in the long-term.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And you work for The Big Issue, so this is a really important thing to your readers and the people who you work with as well, isn鈥檛 it?

ISABELLA-听听 It is. It is. It鈥檚 so important. We鈥檝e had hundreds of readers write into us over the last year expressing their fears. It鈥檚 really been quite harrowing to speak to people about their concerns. I鈥檝e heard things about sleepless nights, the real fear that鈥檚 impacting their mental health, their physical health. I think we talk a lot about the devastating impact that these cuts will have and could have had if they went in the full-blown sense of the original cuts. But we don鈥檛 talk enough about the devastating impact that it鈥檚 had on people over the last year. And I think it鈥檚 also eroded trust in the Labour Government too.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What kind of stories have you been hearing from your readers?

ISABELLA-听听 I mean I started reporting on the disability benefits鈥� system a couple of years ago, and even then I was hearing such stories of the traumatic impact the assessment process was having, going through appeals being rejected. These were people with severe health conditions already, amputees, stroke survivors, and then there were being told that their benefits could be stripped away from them. They face such uncertainty all that time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e talking to Rethink a little bit later. I know that lots of your readers and people you work with have been impacted by homelessness. Are people worried about if their health gets worse? So maybe they鈥檙e managing at the moment the unstable situation that they might be in, might make them worry that their health gets worse in the future and then they wouldn鈥檛 get the benefits that they would have done before?

ISABELLA-听听 Oh, absolutely. There鈥檚 such a fear that they would have lost their benefits. And of course now there鈥檚 relief these PIP changes have been shelved for now, which is great news. But there have been so many fears over the last year. And you mentioned homelessness there. I have been told by a number of people that they were worried they were going to lose their homes. It鈥檚 really scary, and people rely on PIP in order to survive.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Fear is such a huge one, isn鈥檛 it? We鈥檝e got the Timms Review coming up now, which is a review of the assessment process for Personal Independence Payments. How does that figure now after today, after the vote going through, after all the different amendments and changes? Where are we with the Timms Review and what that will actually do?

ISABELLA-听听 The TIMS Review is set to be co-produced with disabled people and groups. It鈥檚 thought that it鈥檚 not going to be expected to conclude until autumn next year at the earliest, so what that will look like remains to be seen. But we do know that Stephen Timms confirmed today, he agreed to an amendment from Marie Tidball, and she suggested that the government commit to working with a disability co-production taskforce. And that would have a majority of representatives who either had a disability or were from disabled groups, and Timm seemed quite supportive of this idea. So it sounds like that should be happening, which hopefully would mean a more compassionate system, and the outcome of this review hopefully will lead to that compassionate in the PIP process.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And Marie Tidball of course is a Labour MP who鈥檚 disabled herself and who we鈥檝e had on the podcast before. Also this week we鈥檝e had some chat about changes to special needs鈥� provision to the SEND system, and some talk about potential changes or getting rid of EHCPs, Education and Health Care Plans. It鈥檚 interesting, isn鈥檛 it, the anxiety and the fear around changes to the SEND system, because many, many people, parents, teachers, government, the opposition, feel like there need to be changes to the system. So, you know, a lot of people feel like reform is needed, but it鈥檚 the horror of getting through the reform and what that will be, isn鈥檛 it, for some people?

ISABELLA-听听 Yeah. And it is again that uncertainty, I think. Disabled people have been through it before with the welfare bill, and as I said earlier, that trust has been eroded. So how can they trust that these reforms are going to be positive for them if they鈥檝e seen so many cuts and attacks on their rights from their perspective?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Isabella McRae from The Big Issue, thank you.

ISABELLA-听听 Thank you so much.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media, and read our articles on the 蜜芽传媒 news website.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Now to Lana Hempsall. Lana is a Conservative councillor in Norfolk. She鈥檚 visually impaired, and she has been pretty vocal about welfare reform and this bill, she鈥檚 been writing in The Spectator, and she is with me now. Hi, Lana.

LANA-听听听听听听听听听 Hey, Emma. How are you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 well, thank you. What do you make of today鈥檚 debate?

LANA-听听听听听听听听听 Well today鈥檚 debate was a complete dog鈥檚 dinner. I鈥檓 just really disappointed with the way this whole welfare reform bill has gone, it just had so much promise and so much opportunity. Listening to the parochial debate in the commons today just makes my heart sink, that nothing鈥檚 ever going to get done that鈥檚 going to help us at the end of the day.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And what were you disappointed by? What were you hoping for that didn鈥檛 happen?

LANA-听听听听听听听听听 I went to the Royal National College for the Blind, which was a great set-up in its own way and not so great in others. But what it did, it really drummed into every single one of us there that we were preparing for a life of work, a life of opportunity, a life where we would succeed. This welfare reform bill had that opportunity to make absolutely certain that people with disabilities could enter and remain in the world of work and just build their futures, build hope and aspiration into what we have, and it failed catastrophically in achieving that and I鈥檓 gutted, I鈥檓 genuinely gutted.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Would you have voted for the bill last week when it was having its second reading before all the concessions were made? Would you have voted it through before the concessions?

LANA-听听听听听听听听听 Good heavens, no. Absolutely no. Because it achieved nothing. Liz Kendall, she said the welfare spending is out of control, we need to do something about that, we need to get more disabled people into work, etc, etc. Really high minded, really worthy intentions of what she wanted to do. And then, honestly if I didn鈥檛 know better, I would think somebody set her up, they said, 鈥淗ere鈥檚 how you save 拢5bn out of the projected 100 that we鈥檙e going to see over the next five years, and you can achieve this by changing the criteria in this way.鈥� Honestly, you would have imagined that somebody would have done the number crunching for her, because by the time the think tanks got round to it, it turned out that she was not going to stop the onflow of young people with mild mental health problems onto the PIP system, and she was going to adversely affect about 70% of people in their 40s and 50s with muscular skeletal issues and chronic pain really badly. No wonder the Labour MPs revolted. Instead of saying, 鈥淭his is what I want to achieve. I want this many disabled people in work. I want the severely disabled people to be supported better, and I want a better solution for people with mental health problems. Give me something that鈥檚 going to achieve that.鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Tell me, your party Leader, Kemi Badenoch, she made some controversial suggestions this week on how reform of PIP could happen, Personal Independence Payments. To what extent do you agree with what she said? And take us through the kind of three major things she suggested.

LANA-听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檒l just pick a few. So the first one ending 鈥渢elephone consultations,鈥� well that鈥檚 a no-brainer, you don鈥檛 even need legislation for that. Liz Kendall can do that tomorrow without taking anything through parliament.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And why do you think that would make a difference then?

LANA-听听听听听听听听听 Because Emma, I鈥檝e done some work into this. You have these people, people who specialise in advising people with disabilities how to get hold of PIP and sickness benefits in general. What you can get for a sum of money, you can get a script that will take you through the PIP process. And because people in assessment centres are more or less obliged to take you at your word when you say you cannot do things, and any challenge, any fraud, is pushed out to DWP, there is no way over the phone telling if somebody鈥檚 got that particular issue or not, because it鈥檚 impossible. We need gatekeepers to look after the public purse because this is taxpayer money, Emma. This isn鈥檛 money that鈥檚 suddenly flowed into the treasury, this is taxpayers鈥� money, and taxpayers need to know that what they鈥檙e paying in tax they鈥檙e getting back value for money. Allowing people to not demonstrate adequately that they are in need of a benefit, is not value for money.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e mentioned people with 鈥渕ild鈥� mental health difficulties, getting them away from PIP. How would you do that? And why do you think they shouldn鈥檛 get PIP when they feel like they need it to cover extra costs due to their mental health?

LANA-听听听听听听听听听 Because Emma, you will find it really difficult to find mental health practitioners who will tell you that after a bout of depression, you will be hard-pressed to find anybody who will tell you that getting work, engaging in some sort of activity that involves other people, isn鈥檛 good for you. I worked as a business coach over the pandemic quite a lot with people who struggle with their mental health. Without exception engaging with a world of work, getting a reward either in physical contact, social interaction, without exception those changes were good for them.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Lana Hempsall, thank you for joining me on Access All.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 joined now by Jeremy Bernhaut, Associate Director of Policy and Influencing at Rethink Mental Illness. Jeremy, where do people with mental ill health stand now?

JEREMY-听听听听听听 It鈥檚 welcome that the PIP changes have been removed from the bill. There are still many people who will be affected by the changes to Universal Credit that have still been voted through. But overall, we鈥檙e hopeful that if the government does the co-production properly and meaningfully engages with people, then they can make some really good improvements to PIP that overall will be good for people severely affected by mental illness. [Dog barking in the background]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay. And thanks also to your dog there for helping you out a little bit. I think lots of people don鈥檛 quite understand the connection between people with mental ill health and disability benefits. [Dog barking in the background]

JEREMY-听听听听听听 People severely affected by mental illness- I鈥檓 so sorry, I鈥檓 going to have to shut my dog up. [Dog barking in the background]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

JEREMY-听听听听听听 Apologies. This is the culprit.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh the dog! Jeremy, I鈥檓 blind, but my producers are telling me that you鈥檙e showing us the dog. Who is the dog?

JEREMY-听听听听听听 This is Ziggy, and he is a border poodle.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay. I feel like you had a lot to say about how people with mental ill health use benefit money. What do they need the health top-up of Universal Credit for?

JEREMY-听听听听听听 Many people with mental illness, with severe mental illness, will be too unwell to work. But many people are able to work if given the right support to. But while they鈥檙e in the process of looking for work, and making all of those changes to their life that they need to make in order to be well enough to work and remain in work sustainably, people need that health top-up in order to get by. We鈥檝e also heard of many cases where because there are 1.6 million people on waiting lists for mental health services, many people are actually using that money to either pay for private therapy, or to pay for treatment that isn鈥檛 yet available on the NHS.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What do employers need to do to enable and support people with mental ill health to remain in work, or to get into a job?

JEREMY-听听听听听听 Employers need a lot of support with this too. Many employers lack confidence in how to support people with mental illness, so there is a need for a lot of upskilling of managers and employers out there. Many people experiencing mental illness tell us that they鈥檝e experienced stigma in the workplace, that often they encounter some really quite damaging assumptions about their abilities, and a lack of progression in the workplace. But with really good upskilling of managers and employers, and really clear guidance on what reasonable adjustments are needed. So for example, if somebody needs to adjust start and finish times to take account for the effects of their medication, or if there is another reasonable adjustment that can be made that is acceptable within the confines of the role that they鈥檙e doing, and is also what they need in order to stay well enough to perform in their role, then that employer and that individual needs to identify that reasonable adjustment and put it in place.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 The numbers of people getting disability benefits for mental health issues, they鈥檝e gone up by 6% in the last nine years, and now 69% of new 25 year old claimants are receiving the benefits for mental health or behavioural disorders. Why are the numbers going up so quickly, and why are they so high?

JEREMY-听听听听听听 We do need to be slightly careful about the statistics, because as you鈥檝e said there, those are mental health and also behavioural disorders which are of course two very different things. But what we can鈥檛 get away from is that there is a huge need out there for mental health support. People have gone through a cost of living crisis, we鈥檝e seen an erosion of public services, the news agenda often fills people with fear, and there are lots of different reasons why people are seeing a crisis in their mental health. What we really need is support from the government in order to get people access to mental health services so that they don鈥檛 have to wait a really long time in order to receive the support that they need. And really what we need is a cross-government and cross-societal approach to help people and make sure that mental ill health is prevented, and that people are able to live as full lives as they can and contribute as much to society as they can.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But Jeremy, some might say that there needs to be a cut off somewhere?

JEREMY-听听听听听听 I would say that if the aim is to help people who have a disability to live their life and be able to contribute to society and to be able to work, then that is a worthwhile investment for our society and for our economy too.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But shouldn鈥檛 there be some talk about how bad your mental health needs to be before you get it?

JEREMY-听听听听听听 Well, there is already a really rigorous assessment process. It would be a complete mistake to assume that people are currently getting Personal Independence Payments who don鈥檛 currently need that money. The process is already much harder than it needs to be, and people regularly tell us how difficult it is. It would be a mistake to assume that it鈥檚 easy for people to receive this money.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay. Jeremy Bernhaut from Rethink Mental Illness, thank you for joining me from a very noisy household.

JEREMY-听听听听听听 Thank you.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Jeremy Bernhaut there and his dog, Ziggy, from Rethink Mental Illness. We have been in contact with the Department for Work and Pensions for comment, and we have asked for an interview with the Disability Minister, Sir Stephen Timms, but we haven鈥檛 heard back from them at the time of recording. If anything about this episode makes you want to get in touch with me, or you want to speak to me about anything at all, you can email accessall@bbc.co.uk听 See you soon. Bye.