ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½

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23rd July 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 168

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul, do you know what a situationship is?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I must admit, Emma, I don’t have the foggiest idea.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, luckily for you Christine McGuinness will be along later in the programme to tell us all about her new podcast, which is called Situationships. And Christine is autistic and she’s got ADHD, and she’s got three autistic kids and she split up with her ex-husband three years ago, and now she’s ready to start talking about dating and relationships. Here’s a flavour of what you’ll hear later on:

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On a first date, for example, eating food together would be an absolute no, I wouldn’t be able to do it. Now, if I didn’t say, actually it’s part of my autism and I have sensory food issues, if I didn’t kind of explain that to somebody who didn’t know they might think she’s a bit odd, a bit weird [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And that’s coming up later, Christine McGuinness. Paul, has anyone ever questioned your disability?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I mean, mine’s very visible so no really, in that sense.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Stevie Wonder, the legend, was doing a gig in Cardiff last week and he found himself having to address rumours that he’s not really blind.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell us what he said.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He said, ‘You know there have been rumours about me seeing and all that, but seriously, you know the truth. The truth is shortly after my birth I became blind. Now, that was a blessing because it’s allowed me to see the world in the vision of truth of sight, see people in the spirit of them, not how they look; not what colour they are, but what colour is their spirit’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love the way Stevie Wonder sort of talks in riddles as well.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] he sounds like a sage.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which I guess is probably quite apt considering what he does. A little aside: do you think Stevie Wonder is the most famous disabled person in the world?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I mean, you’re pretty well known Paul, to be fair.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is he more famous than Michael J Fox?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I would say. Back in the day we used to do a list of the most famous disabled people in the world, and he was always up there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who did?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Stephen Hawking was always number one.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Who did this list and why is it all Stevens?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] that’s a very good point. I never even thought of that. It was Disability Now used to do it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yes, the disability magazine that you used to work for.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, that used to do that list.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, let’s do the top five then. At five, Selena Gomez.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s a good shout.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At four, Lady Gaga.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Go on, you need to do a number three now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I thought you might help me out with that. At three, Warwick Davis. Yeah?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a good shout, Warwick’s very well known.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Harry Potter.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then you said Michael J Fox is probably number two.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah. And then Stevie Wonder number one.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then Stevie, King Stevie.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, they keep shouting new names from the gallery at me. Greta Thunberg, she’s very famous.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She is very famous. See, this is what I mean, this is what I was saying, we’re opening a can of worms here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think Warwick is going to get knocked off now.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh no!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m sorry, Warwick. But then I did ask Warwick for an interview a few months ago and he said no.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh okay, right, we’ll get rid of him then.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, the only reason Lady Gaga didn’t say no is because I didn’t ask her.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right, fine. We should change this list to famous disabled people who haven’t said no to Access All, shouldn’t we? [Laughter]

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is Access All, the weekly disability and mental health podcast from ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News. I’m Emma Tracey. Please do subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds or get in touch. Our email is accessall@bbc.co.uk. And we’re on Instagram and on X @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. And as you heard there, we’ve got Paul Carter here. He’s with me all the way through the show. Before we actually start the headlines can we just circle back to the old Stevie Wonder please?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good old Stevie Wonder.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What I like also about him is he’s very good at the old activism. He always stands up for what he believes in. And can I tell you how I know that?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, go on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I met him – I mean, our listeners will have already heard this once or twice – I met him and sort of hung out with him in a loose sort of way at a technology conference in California earlier this year.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just chilling with Stevie.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just chilling with Stevie. And he did an impromptu speech at one of the events in the evening all about accessibility and how he was worried about the changes to DEI, diversity, equality and inclusion, under President Trump. But I think what we need to play in here is a clip. It is a little bit embarrassing to me, Paul, I’m not going to lie, but I feel like it deserves a little airing.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, let’s hear it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A clip of me and Stevie just hanging out:

[Clip]

STEVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what’s your favourite Stevie Wonder song?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think I…I, I don’t know, I don’t know if this will be yours.

STEVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Boom!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Isn’t she Lovely. Isn’t She Lovely is lovely.

STEVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it should be because you’re lovely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, Stevie, thank you so much. Thank you.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I mean, well rescued, well rescued. I thought that was about to be the most cringiest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. Isn’t Isn’t She Lovely your favourite Stevie Wonder song? [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it’s the first one that came to my head. Honestly. I mean, I could think of about 23 when I left, but at the time I was just so horrified that he asked me a very simple question that I didn’t know the answer to, and I just went, oh, uh, blah, blah, blah.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s amazing. He didn’t seem too offended, did he? But you saved it anyway. It was a good save, just in time.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you. I feel like he’s a very proud disabled person, Stevie Wonder.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it, because sometimes you feel that these really famous, out there disabled people traditionally have shied away from the sort of campaigning activism side of things. So, it’s really refreshing to see someone with his sort of profile approaching it from that kind of position.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And it’s Disability Pride Month as well.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What does that mean to you, Paul, do you think?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m a big fan of Disability Pride. I think it’s a big part of what we talk about on this show, it’s about owning your identity and, as the name suggests, being proud of your disability and not hiding it and embracing it. But it is interesting around Pride that I’ve seen a lot of discontent among activists and campaigners that they feel that it’s perhaps not got the attention and the coverage more widely that perhaps it has in recent years. I mean, I’m not sure if that’s something that you’ve noticed as well this time around?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’ve seen a few little bits about it. I mean, there was an article in the BMA, it’s not one of the big papers but it’s the British Medical Association, which I suppose should be talking about it kind of tied up in health. But someone called Emma Beeden saying that it’s needed more than ever.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Maybe we need to re-champion Disability Pride Month next time around and make it more prominent.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Give it a good old push. So, I think, Paul, people do understand Pride Month, which represents the LGBTQ+ community. But I’m not sure if they understand Disability Pride Month as much, do they?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m not sure they do, and I think that’s part of the challenge. I’ve seen a lot of disabled activists and campaigners say that they’ve not really had the opportunity and the commissions from media outlets and stuff to actually give the opportunity to explain what it is, and I think that’s part of the problem.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I think people have been calling it Disability Awareness Month, which it absolutely is not, is it?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, it is not Disability Awareness. I have a long-running thing that I cannot stand the phrase disability awareness.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh, why not?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s the raising awareness is the thing I hate because it’s like, raising awareness of what? Raising awareness of something to change behaviour or to bring about change is absolutely a good thing; but very often you just see raising awareness that operates in a silo, and I don’t think that’s what we need. Pride is about identity and taking ownership I think, and saying that disability isn’t a bad word. And I think that’s what we need to get back to.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you were talking about people not being given the media opportunities to write about Disability Pride Month or go on TV and talk about it. So, what I find disabled people do in those situations is they go on their social media, their TikTok or their Insta and they post their own videos in the hope that they’ll kind of go viral or they’ll get to the right people.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I didn’t see a huge number of videos for Disability Pride Month this year, but I did see from a guy called David Holmes who was a stuntman on the Harry Potter films until a stunt went wrong and he became paralysed from the neck down. But he’s actually become quite vocal about disability rights etc. So, he decided to post his own video about Disability Pride Month. Here’s a clip:

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’m really proud to belong to the disabled community. I honestly will always say breaking my neck made a man of me, it really did, despite how difficult I’ve found it this last month, this last six months, this last 15 years. I still would say I’m a better human being because of the humbling and the challenges that I have to live with and overcome on a daily basis. So, to anybody watching this who’s disabled, who has got any sort of struggles in their own life, all I can say is just learn to love yourself, learn to forgive yourself, and accept the fact that we’re given this gift of life and then it’s going to take things away from us. But in that lesson there are still some beautiful moments. I’m proud to be who I am. I’m proud to be disabled. Anybody who looks at me that tries to fix me, fix society to accept me for who I am. Thank you for watching this video and happy Disability Pride Month to everybody out there.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s amazing!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Isn’t it?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I absolutely loved that. I mean, that’s put is a thousand times better than I could ever have possibly put it. That is what Disability Pride is right there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, he’s just nailed it there, hasn’t he?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wrapped it up and put a little bow on it. Thank you David Holmes.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] a little purple bow.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yes, because purple is the disability colour, of course.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Of course.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which I have absolutely no concept of, but never mind. Listen, going from purple now, Paul – see how I’m now going to segway into this next one, right?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m enjoying this.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý From purple, Paul, to blue, right? So, we get these search emails at work every day, a couple of times a day, about what people are googling. And the other day we got one where it said, people are googling Blue Badge hosepipe ban, because they want to know whether people with Blue Badges are exempt from the hosepipe ban. Do you think they are?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] what? That can’t be a real thing? No, no. Why? Why?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re having me on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the most recent ban that I read about was Thames Water, and they said that people who are on their sort of medical register, people who have a Blue Badge, or people who are on the WaterSure tariff, which is one of their specialist tariffs, due to medical reasons are exempt from the hosepipe ban. And it comes down to if you have specific disabilities, maybe physical impairments, it might be really difficult to carry a big heavy watering can around to water your garden for example, so you can use your hose.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is phenomenal. I’ve genuinely never heard of that in my life. But that is if you’ve got a Blue Badge? So, only disabled people who have a car are allowed to water their garden, is that what we’re saying?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughter] no.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you can’t drive you’re out of luck.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To be fair, the water company also has a form which says if none of these apply to you but you still think you should be exempt fill in this form. I’d imagine they’ll have loads of people filling in the form, chancing their arms. Because there are really big paddling pools around now, massive ones.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I absolutely love that. I don’t have a garden, but now I know I’m exempt I might just, you know, get the hosepipe out anyway [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you have a hose?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Actually I don’t. That’s the first thing I’m going to do when we get out of here, I’m going to go and buy a hose. I’m really not. Don’t waste water, people. That’s bad.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, they didn’t say what you couldn’t do with your hose, so you could buy a hose, stick it out the window and spray anybody who tries to park in the disabled parking space.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Excellent. You’re onto something here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, I am not condoning this behaviour. It was just something that came to me.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sure. Change of tone slightly, I know you’re big into your football, Emma. You’ll be aware obviously of Lamine Yamal, who is probably one of the most up and coming footballers in the world at the moment, plays for Barcelona. He’s a young lad. And he’s recently just been in the news, and he’s actually being investigated by the Spanish prosecutor’s office because he threw an 18th birthday party recently and it came out that basically he had hired a group of people with dwarfism to be the waiters and the servers at his party. It’s caused a big ruckus, and the Spanish Association for people with achondroplasia and other skeletal dysplasia’s with dwarfism – it’s a very longwinded title – the ADEE, have complained and have lodged a formal complaint with the authorities in Spain saying that it’s very backward and it’s very outdated. But interestingly the actors, the people that were performing at the party, were angry about this.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re angry about the complaint?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. They’re saying that they work as entertainers, and they said, ‘Why can’t we do it because of our physical condition?’ And they’re basically saying that they weren’t forced to do it, they weren’t coerced, they did it completely of their own free will, and they were treated very well, and are pretty upset that this has all happened. And it does raise a really interesting question, doesn’t it, because I think most of us would be horrified of the idea that that is still something that’s happening, but you do hear this counter argument that it’s a source of work and it pays well, and if they’re treated well then why shouldn’t they have the option to do it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’ve been talking to some young people about this, my own 10 year-old and my 13 year-old niece. And my 10 year-old listens to a lot of these YouTube videos that go, ‘footballer, blah, blah, blah, does this’ in an electronic voice. But there have been loads of these YouTube shorts about this story, Lamine Yamal. So, he was saying, ‘but the people who were at the birthday party, who were working there, they had a nice time, they didn’t mind’. And I hadn’t read the story yet, and I was like, ‘Really? Are you sure?’ So, it was really interesting because it got him thinking about it and watching different aspects of it. And my 13 year-old niece then went on to talk about the new Snow White movie. So, there’s a new live action Snow White movie with Rachel Zegler as Snow White, and in it the seven dwarfs are seven people CGI’d. And there’s been a lot of uproar about that from that acting community, saying ‘why have you given other people jobs that we could have had?’ So, it is nuanced. And we did try and get someone of restricted growth on to talk about this because it’s such an interesting one, isn’t it?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I think the thing that I found most surprising is that Lamine Yamal is a young man, like I say it was his 18th birthday, and I was perhaps expecting that the younger generation might be a little bit more switched on to this kind of stuff, and that idea of treating people with dwarfism as kind of entertainment figures…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Play things?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …yeah, was something in the past.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Paul, I really love looking in the inbox to see what people have said and the stories they’ve brought us. Sam was listening to the Robin Ince episode and she said she really enjoyed it, and she’s going to use the phrase confidently vulnerable from now on, which is one that Robin used around having ADHD and not being afraid to talk about the things that are struggle-y for him. So, I thought that was cool.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then another listener – excuse me while I indulge in a little bit of phrase here, Paul – Jenny emailed us and she said she listens every week and she thinks the show is wonderful. Thanks a million, Jenny. But actually she listened when her husband was getting progressively more physically disabled, and it really helped her. And also the Robin Ince episode helped her because her nephew, who’s 13, has ADHD and so does Robin Ince. She says her other ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ heroes, apart from me – sorry about this, Paul – are Frank Gardner and Gary O’Donohue. And she thought Gary’s interview with Donald Trump last week was excellent.

[Clip]

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m here with the President. Here you go.

GARY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mr President.

TRUMP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, Gary. How are you?

GARY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very well, sir. Thank you very much for sparing some time.

TRUMP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good. You covered us very fairly. I appreciate it.

[End of clip]

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love the fact that you can clearly tell that he’s just woken up as well [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No! I’m sure he covered it really well. Why? How can you tell?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He’s just got kind of, you know, morning voice. Sorry, Gary.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, that was aÌý huge story last week. And Jenny says, ‘I always have to remind myself that he’s blind’. Nobody has to remind themselves that I’m blind because I say it all the time. But that’s interesting, isn’t it, Gary rarely puts himself into the story as a blind journalist, a blind person, but he did when he ended up at the attempted assassination of Donald Trump last year it ended up being something that he talked about quite a lot. And this time, because he accidentally hung up on Donald Trump on this occasion – which I totally understand because as a blind person you’re fumbling for the phone, it’s a touchscreen, you’re tapping it, and sometimes things just go wrong. But they rang him back. And then blindy power, he was immediately able to record the interview. And what I know about Gary is that he’s got loads of tech in his house, and he loves recorders and he’s got really good setups for that. And I think that partly does come from being blind because you’re a bit of a geek about this stuff because you’re maybe less worried about the pictures and stuff. So, I just think that actually that was his superpower in some ways that he was able to just really, really quickly do a setup that then could go across the world on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because it was all very last, well not even last minute, was it, he didn’t even know it was coming until he basically got that call that we heard the clip of. I think it’s really great sometimes that if your disability is, not necessarily a part of the story, but it frames the context around it then absolutely lean into it. But where it’s necessary and it’s relevant and it adds colour in that sense then I think it’s absolutely important that we hear those stories.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. If you want to contact us you can email accessall@bbc.co.uk. And we’re on social media, X and Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My guest this time is Christine McGuinness. She is a model, she’s a TV personality, an autism advocate, and now a podcast host. She’s got three autistic children, and she’s got a diagnosis of autism and ADHD herself. But this podcast with novelist Sophie Gravia is not about that at all. In it they reveal plenty about their experiences of relationships and dating, and they give thoughts on listeners’ dilemmas. She’s here with me to tell me all about it. Hello, Christine McGuinness.

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, you’ve got this new podcast called Situationships, and do you know, it really shows another side to you, certainly one we haven’t seen in a long time because you’ve been doing so much serious TV and so much serious autism activism and advocacy. In this you’re relaxed, you’re funny, you’re open. It’s just lovely to hear you having a bit of fun. Why did you decide that now is the time to do something frivolous and fun and for yourself?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s where I’m at in life, and it’s just come at the perfect time. I wouldn’t have had these conversations a couple of years ago because I wasn’t relaxed within myself, I wasn’t very confident in speaking. Even just trying to have fun I’d kind of shy away from it. I’m feeling completely able to just be myself more and more. And it’s helped me, it’s helped me massively from the first episode up to where we are now; I can see a difference in how relaxed I am.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, you’ve been on a journey yourself haven’t you?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because it’s been recorded over time. What kinds of things do you talk about in the podcast?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Situationships is for me I would say that grey area between when you’re just dating somebody but you’re not quite in a relationship. But we don’t just discuss romantic situationships, we talk about situationships at work, if you could cross the line with your boss, again not in a romantic way, just when does it come being professional or when does it become too friendly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You are so much in the public eye and your relationships have historically been massively public as well. How do you decide how much detail to give about your own dating life and romantic life and relationships on the podcast?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I feel a lot more free. I can laugh about my own situationships, and I just don’t take much too seriously anymore. To be honest, there really hasn’t been [laughingly] relationships, other than situationships; there’s been blurred lines with friends, there’s been nothing, there’s been bits of dating. But the press unfortunately write their own narrative.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re a busy woman. I mean, what does being autistic and having ADHD bring to the table in these conversations with Sophie, your cohost, about situationships particularly? Because I feel like you will have a different perspective, but you don’t actually say very often in the podcast, oh well I’m autistic therefore, or I’ve got ADHD therefore… But I feel like there is a lot that that brings to the table, is there?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I suppose for me when I just talk about my situationships or any experiences in life I’m always coming from an autistic ADHD woman’s point of view. On a first date, for example, eating food together would be an absolute no, I wouldn’t be able to do it. Now, if I didn’t say, actually it’s part of my autism and I have sensory food issues, I’m not really comfortable in busy places that I don’t know, I can find the smell really overwhelming, if I didn’t explain that to somebody that didn’t know they might think she’s a bit odd, a bit weird [laughs] or maybe she’s just really shy or, you know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I always find it better to say it when I feel like it’s appropriate. But I also don’t always introduce myself as hi, I’m Christine McGuinness and I’m autistic and ADHD [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, but lots of people know that now anyway. I suppose what I mean is does it bring something to the table for the podcast, you know, your take on situationships particularly?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely. I think because we’re coming from two different sides, two different personalities anyway. But obviously from my side my feelings are completely different to Sophie’s, not just because of me being neurodivergent, because I had a really long marriage and relationship and then found myself single later on; whereas Sophie’s the other way round. She’s got all this experience of dating and she’s got the most funniest stories ever; whereas I’m only just starting out. And we can advise each other where I’ve been in a long relationship and she hasn’t, and obviously I’m new to dating. But there will be things that because of autism and ADHD that I probably wouldn’t pick up on in situationships which Sophie would because she’s more experienced, but just thinks differently to how I do as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve spoken to lots of autistic women, Christine, who tell me that especially in the earlier days of their relationships and romantic lives they’ve found it a bit confusing, sometimes scary, even dangerous when they maybe misread a signal or put a bit too much trust in someone. I mean, your eldest autistic daughter is 12 now and your son as well, you’ve been that autistic teenager, the person at the beginning of that situation, what kind of advice would you give your children and other autistic young people going into that part of their lives?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I talk to my children a lot, and it’s one of the things I’m most proud of is how open we are with each other. And I’ve really worked on making sure that they’ve got my trust and I’ve got theirs. And you’re aware of how vulnerable autistic children and teenagers especially can be, of course I want to protect my children at all costs, and I think something that I really struggled with as a teenager was talking. I didn’t like to talk about how I was feeling or if I was unsure about something. I was very, very innocent in that if somebody liked me I would think that oh, they just really like me and they just want to be my friend. It’s taken a few bad experiences for me to realise how serious it is, and it’s something that I’ve researched a lot and looked into because I know it’s not just me. The latest stats I looked at last year was nine in ten autistic women will have experienced some kind of abuse, whether it’s emotional, mental, sexual or physical. So, it’s something that I do take very seriously, especially when it comes to my own children. I’m publicly talking about it as much as I can to raise awareness, just so we do all look out for each other. But it can just be the simplest little things of misreading signals. If somebody gives you a compliment and you just think that they’re being nice; and it’s because they want more.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now listen, there was a report from the property development company, Barratt Redrow, and it said that about half of parents of disabled kids struggle to find a playground that was accessible to their children, and that’s something you’ve been talking about recently. What kinds of adjustments or accessibility would your children have needed in a playground? And how difficult was it to find that for you?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They would only feel comfortable using certain equipment. So, obviously the average park it might have a swing, a slide. I would be looking for places that had a fence around them because they were obviously unaware of the dangers of running off. And sometimes they would run, they would climb and they would be quick. Again, that’s part of their autism ADHD. If they were having a meltdown because they were overwhelmed if it was too busy, I’d be trying to find a quieter park or I would go. But equipment wise, wider slides, basket swings are amazing. I am seeing more and more accessible parks about but I know, again from research, families are travelling on average five miles to try and find somewhere that is more suitable for their children.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why would autistic children need those different equipment? So, you talked about basket swings and wider slides, is that for kids with other impairments or are you talking about your kids as well? Is it about safety maybe?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For an autistic child for example it could be down to comfort, it could be down to feeling quite restricted. I remember mine always felt very restricted in the swings that would go around the waist, so the basket swings were the only things that they would play on. For autistic and ADHD the wider slide I would always look for so that I could go with them, or the brother or sister, the siblings could go with them to give them that support and the encouragement. Because that’s really what a lot of autistic children need is just a helping hand.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Shall we talk about education now? We’ve gone on to the very serious subject I’m afraid.

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s fine.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bridget Phillipson, the minister for education, said on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg a few weeks ago that they’re looking into special educational needs and disabilities provision and that they might be looking into getting rid of or changing education and health care plans, which is something all parents of disabled kids will know about. There’s a white paper coming out in the autumn about this. Many people feel like the system needs reform. What’s your take on this? Do you think there needs to be reform and what do you think the government needs to do to make the system work together?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the educational health and care plan that children right now are entitled to if they’ve got additional needs, they need extra help and support at school, that is what is at risk of being taken away. And that is our children’s right, and that is something that parents and carers are not going to just sit back and allow to happen because we know how important it is, and we know our children’s rights and we know what they’re entitled to, and we also know what a detrimental effect that would have. My children would not be in school if they didn’t have an EHCP, they wouldn’t. They wouldn’t finish education. They would miss out on years of not just education but social skills, life skills, potentially making friends, future careers, everything they will lose.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re saying they’re going to put money in to, Christine, things like training teachers up in SEND provision, having more assistance in class. Would that not be enough, do you not think?

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. And again, I don’t think children should be separated. I completely support the idea of having more SEN schools and SEN units at schools because of course we all need more and more help and support, especially for our children. But the educational health and care plan is by law that’s our children’s right to get that help and support, and it’s bespoke, it’s unique, it’s individual to the child and to their needs. We know as parents and as carers that we’re protected in that right now that is what our children are entitled to and that is what they will get, which is why we need to continue to fight to make sure that all children are getting individual care for them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My goodness, Christine, we’ve covered a lot of ground today I would say, [laughter], everything from dating to relationships to education to playgrounds. My goodness, I’ve really pulled on all of your resources, so thank you so much for taking then time to chat to me.

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No problem.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And hopefully we’ll get to chat in the studio again soon.

CHRISTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely. Thank you so much for your time, Emma. I appreciate it. Take care.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was Christine McGuinness there. And earlier in that interview she talked about her new podcast, Situationships, all about dating and relationships with different kinds of people. And she talked about being autistic within those situationships. So, that got us thinking abut other impairments and dating and relationships. Then our good old colleague, Alex, popped up and said, ‘I’ve got some dating stories’. And we said, ‘Come on in, tell us them, Alex’.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul is still with me.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello mate. ÌýI should just say, for transparency sake, that Alex and I are actually friends IRL.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I know him in real life.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve got some amazing dating stories.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think he’s been going on the apps. Scary biscuits.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. How do you find using mainstream dating apps and being a disabled person?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I started in earnest – if I should use that word – in lockdown. I couldn’t go out and I thought I may as well just message others on here, and hopefully afterwards I can meet people. Afterwards I actually found it had helped me as a person who’s in a wheelchair because it made me open up a bit more, and also understand that the disability is not as much of an issue as I may have assumed it was earlier on in my life as a teenager.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And actually if you put yourself out there it doesn’t really matter about the disability, because I find that women on there they don’t care about the disability. So, on the apps I would make it evident I’m in a chair, I would make a joke about it as well so it’s not awkward if we have that chat if that ever comes up.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because we’ve spoken about that before, haven’t we, it’s a bit like a preschool sort of thing.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You're sort of weeding out the people that are going to be weird about it.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is. In nightclubs I’d always mention, if a person actually came up and said hello, I could work out what opinion they actually had on me after the hi. If it was a [neutral voice] oh hi, or a [gushing voice] oh hey, aren’t you sweet. And I’d be like, well there’s no chance of this happening, you know what I mean.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my gosh, this is so true. That is so true!

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Helpful having that kind of barrier. So, that also happened online, right, so I found that was really the kind of it helped me in a way.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have obviously had instances where I’ve had a person who was matched with me but hadn’t looked down my page, and then after they’re matched they thought oh my goodness, he can’t walk, I must unmatch him. But that hardly ever happens, that’s quite rare. So, I don’t mind that because I’d rather not know you if that’s your opinion.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, for sure.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, going on the mainstream apps and being honest about who you are may not actually be as scary as we think, and might actually be a useful thing and a positive thing. Now, I know that a lot of disabled people leave home a bit later than non-disabled people, sometimes because of care and finances and accessibility of the house. Did that cause any awkwardness? Did it curtail who you could bring back when you lived at home?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it did actually at home. I actually had an ex-girlfriend who had her own house and that was really helpful because I could access it. But at home it was obviously a lot harder in that I had to obviously have help upstairs, getting into bed and all that stuff, so it made it a bit awkward. So, I could never have a girl home, apart from when we were watching a film and then…well yeah. But after I moved out that was really helpful in that I have carers who help me now in my apartment, and so that means when I’m obviously in charge of my own existence and my own life. And my carers are my age and that means that we understand each other and that life, so it's not as awkward as asking my mum if I can have help upstairs.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Not that I ever did.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was going to say [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are you saying that you’d bring someone home and then ask your mum for help to get upstairs?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I’m not [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, find, just clearing that up.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was always my nightmare, which I never let happen because that was fear of like, hello, here’s Kimberley.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But there must be some interesting things that happen?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have had a few instances, especially with my ex-girlfriend who I actually met online. And she was with me and we were watching a film, and it escalated and then we weren’t watching a film. But then what happened is my carer just walked in [laughter] and I told them we were going to watch a film so he knew what meant in context [laughter]. I looked at him and he saw me. My girlfriend had her back turned, so I kind of had to push him out of a door, and that was very awkward. And I had to apologise on his behalf. And then afterwards I had a stern with him and said, hello dude, like, don’t do this again because I wouldn’t do that to you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you were in a state of undress and sort of..?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, I don’t need the minute detail, but it was more what?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was more, you know, exactly that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Embarrassing, yeah.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I felt bad for her really, because obviously I’m a guy and he’s helped me, like, given me a shower so there’s nothing he doesn’t know, but for her I felt bad.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And did it frighten her off?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, she stayed with me, like, a whole year.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Alex it’s 2025, a few years after the pandemic now, are you still on the apps?

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I am, yes. I think I just want to highlight it’s helped me understand that actually people are after who you are, like, as a person. Disability is part of you but it’s not who you are. And that’s what I think we have to understand.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Beautiful.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks mate.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Alex Taylor, thank you very much for enlightening us about your dating.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s all right. I can’t even tell my mum about this so hopefully she’ll never hear this recording.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, well it will be all over the internet so…

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s been good to chat.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we’ve had a lot of fun with you, Alex, and thank you for telling us about your dating experiences. That’s about it, Paul, for this episode. Flew by. If you want to get in touch with us you can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or get us on social media, we’re on Instagram and X @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. And please do, if you haven’t already, subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds. From Paul Carter and from me, see you soon.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý See ya.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

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