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30th July 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 169

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello Access All listeners. Now, it’s 35 years since the US got disability rights laws via the Americans with Disabilities Act. And we’re asking this week what’s it like for disabled people in the US right now. Later I’ll speak to journalist Eric Garcia. Here is what he sounds like:

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You see the images in the United States of the Capitol Crawl, where people with disabilities crawled up the steps of the United States Capitol to convince the American public to pass the ADA. The deliberations were already happening on Capitol Hill and they were close to passing it, but that was just one of those things that sealed the deal for lawmakers and helped solidify public opinion behind it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul Carter is back this week. Hello Paul.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Paul we will talk about football later, I promise, promise, promise. But first let’s talk about clothes shopping.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, exciting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, really?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good, because there’s a new wheelchair using mannequin in Primark stores, selected ones, and it’s been designed by TV presenter, campaigner, Sophie Morgan. So, what do you think of that, a wheelchair using mannequin?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely brilliant. I mean, it’s a big step towards inclusivity, isn’t it? I think it’s a really good thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re all usually stood up, very particular shape and size, aren’t they, mannequins often. This one is seated obviously, it’s using a wheelchair. Apparently it’s slightly hunched in terms of posture. I heard Sophie say that it actually has a little bit more belly than other mannequins, because oftentimes when you're a wheelchair user it’s hard to keep the core tight and the belly tight if you don’t have working muscles there. They used to call it tetra belly. I’m not sure how I feel about that phrase.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have heard it called that. So, it’s a representative mannequin. But I just wondered, thinking about that, what is the one thing that would improve your clothes shopping experience?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, mine’s sort of around the types of clothes I can actually wear. So, for me I don’t have hands so things like buttons, clasps, zips are the absolute enemy for me. And also because I’m short I have to wear shorts instead of full-length trousers, and trying to find shorts with elasticated waists and no buttons is honestly like treasure hunting when I’m going shopping.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, that’s pretty specific.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I don’t know if other people do this, but what I have to do is if I find an item of clothing that works for me I basically have to buy loads of them. So, the trousers I’m wearing today I have, like, six different pairs of these in every single colour that they do because once you’ve found one it’s like, oh my god, it’s like the Holy Grail.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you need long shorts then, like a good length?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, sort of the three-quarter length ones, because I don’t want to be walking round the office in hotpants.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nobody wants that, as you say, no.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what about a shirt then? Because shirts have buttons. I guess we don’t have to wear shirts that much anymore, but if you wanted to look worky, formally on top what do you go for?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, again I try and avoid it where possible; I try and get away with polos, like I’m wearing today if I can. But inÌý terms of shirts usually you have to leave them buttoned up and leave the top couple of buttons undone so I can get it over my head.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And put them on that way. So, it’s just finding ways and means. But again, I’d rather not if I didn’t have to, because it means that if I am doing something more formal I have to get someone to do the buttons up for me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And do you just ask a random on the street or…?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I mean, it’s been known. But generally it’s someone around me that I don’t mind saying can you give me a hand.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý People wouldn’t mind.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. it’s not like I’m asking them to do my flies up or something.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have you ever had to ask someone to do that?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me about it.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Uh, well yeah, just that, I’ve sort of realised that my flies have been undone before and there’s no one else around to ask, so you just sort of try and find a friendly face that isn’t, you know…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. We have to have awful thick skins, don’t we?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Shame has to go out the window sometimes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Out the window. Imagine being a really shy disabled person; that must just be so hard.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is Access All, the weekly disability and mental health podcast from ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News. You can get in touch with us, our email is accessall@bbc.co.uk. Our Instagram is @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. Shall we get on with the headlines, Paul?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And the big one in England this week has got to be the women’s football team winning the Euros. Were you watching?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Indeed. Yes I was. Absolutely brilliant. And I’m delighted I’m actually getting to talk about football on this programme; I never thought I would.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re infiltrating the system.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] absolutely fantastic, wasn’t it? Were you cheering them on?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was cheering them on in my heart.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] in spirit, right?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. But why do we get to talk about that here? Because it’s a mainstream team winning a mainstream competition; there’s no obvious disability references in there.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you say that but there’s a couple.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There’s a couple.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me more?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the goalkeeper Hannah Hampton she has a condition called strabismus, I think that’s the medical term for what we would have known in the old days as a squint.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s not a disability though, is it?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, interestingly enough for a goalkeeper it can affect depth perception.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s only goalkeepers with squints that have depth perception issues.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, but obviously goalkeepers have to catch things that are coming towards them at speed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my god, I would hate to be a goalkeeper!

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] and if you’ve got issues with your depth perception then that’s an interesting thing to actually have to overcome. So, I thought that was super, super interesting. But she’s not the only one, is she?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And obviously she’s found strategies and ways of getting around that. But there is another one as well, did you say, another disability reference?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is. Lucy Bronze, who has been probably one of England’s best players in this tournament she’s autistic and has ADHD. Basically it’s emerged after the final that she played through most of the tournament with a fractured leg, which is pretty phenomenal.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow, that’s incredible! Shall we hear a little clip of her talking about being autistic and being in English football?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

[Clip]

LUCY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My brain’s just like 100 miles an hour all the time. I really struggle with sleep. I had a sleep expert and they said, just before you go to bed write notes of what you’re thinking. And I was like, I’d write a book then. Am I supposed to write a book every night before bed? I was like, that’s not going to work. I’m just going to have exert some energy; I’ve just got too much energy all the time. The biggest one that’s affected me was probably me being, like, ten steps ahead all the time and not giving people the chance to figure that out. And I think people used to think I was like a know it all; and I was like, no, my head’s just thought through all them processes like that [clicks fingers] super quick. It’s my hyperfocus, football. Everyone’s like, you’re so passionate about football, and I’m like, I don’t know I would say I’m passionate, I’m just obsessed. I always used to say I’m obsessed and I’m like, that’s my autism.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow, that’s so cool, isn’t it?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s absolutely cool. I find it fascinating that she’s played basically this whole tournament with a broken leg. I mean, I am the complete opposite: I am a complete wimp when it comes to pain, the slightest thing would knock me for six. But I think you’ve got a theory about why she might have been able to do that, haven’t you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I have some thoughts. I’ve spoken to some autistic people about medical situations and what’s come through there is that sometimes people who are autistic don’t present with pain in the same way. So, they might not be making the screaming noises but they are in as much pain, it’s just they are reacting a different way to it. That’s some people, obviously not everybody. And also I think you’re masking all the time, so masking pain is probably one of the things that you might be able to do. But the other thing is what Lucy talked about there, which is her hyperfocus, and being absolutely focused on the job at hand. And her brain wouldn’t necessarily I believe – not being autistic myself, people can correct me – her brain wouldn’t necessarily be going, oh well I have a broken leg so therefore I can’t play. It would be like, I am playing, this is my focus, this is what’s happening, this is what the plan was, I will be playing, and yeah the broken leg yeah, yeah, I’ll push that pain into the background and I’ll push on with this until I get the job done. And I think that’s fascinating, and I hope she’s okay. But I’m sure she’s had doctors and psychologists and stuff around her talking about it. I don’t know what you do with a fractured femur. Sometimes fractures you don’t put a cast on; you just have to let them heal.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. But you could totally see that during the game though. I mean, the commentators were saying they’ll have to drag her off the pitch kicking and screaming. Because she was injured at one point and it looked like she was going to have to be substituted but she got up and carried on. And I didn’t realise about her diagnosis until after the game, so looking back at it through that lens you can totally see it. It’s really interesting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Fair play Lucy, and it’s great that we can talk about the big story of the week on Access All. Let’s circle back to Sophie Morgan who we talked about at the beginning of the programme and her wheelchair using mannequin, because she’s also been talking about her other big, big campaign that she’s been running for many years called Rights on Flights. It's about access to airports and aeroplanes for disabled people, and giving people a better experience as in not a broken wheelchair at the end of it. And she was writing in The Sunday Times travel this week, wasn’t she?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, it’s all about the wonderfully wordy titled Aviation Accessibility Task and Finish Group, chaired by Tanni Grey-Thompson, have published a report to try and basically improve the rights and the access of disabled fliers. And Sophie has criticised that report to a reasonable degree, largely because – and I’ve read through the recommendations as well, and I think that all of the recommendations that the report makes there’s a recognition that they are good recommendations and they’re necessary, but the problem is that there’s absolutely zero enforcement. To use a colloquialism it's all carrot and no stick really; there’s no impetus or threat to the airlines and airports to actually carry through any of these recommendations.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But the committee is chaired by Tanni Grey-Thompson, who is like a dog with a bone with these things and really hot on it, and has loads of awful experiences on aeroplanes and other modes of transport. But if anyone can get stuff through I’m going to say Tanni can from knowing about her for a very, very long time. And she says that they will be seeing it through to action and that the committee will have to report back to the Department for Transport every year. So, hopefully it isn’t the last that we hear of this group, and hopefully some of the recommendations do come to fruition. Do we know what any of the recommendations were?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, there’s lots around improving way finding, staff training, staff disability awareness training at airports. All of them are useful and I think things to be welcomed, but we actually need to see them implemented.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And we know things are moving forward slowly but not quickly enough for quite a lot of campaigners I think. Now, the Civil Aviation Authority, the ones who look after aeroplanes and airports and stuff, they bring out an annual report on how airports are doing in terms of assistance, and that came out recently as well. And loads of airports were improved, it was fairly good in a lot of ways, but I just couldn’t believe it when I saw that Heathrow, Edinburgh and Glasgow Prestwick were the ones that had been told they needed improvement. It did make me really think about when I was flying last week with my children and we just got left in laybys, and we were left on the plane so long that actually the kids got to see the flight deck.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cool for them though.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was a bit cool for them. But they were like, ‘What is happening? Why are we here? Why can’t we just leave?’ It was so interesting because they don’t see every part of my life I realise. I just said, welcome to my life, I’ve spent I’m going to say a week of my life sitting waiting [laughter], well maybe not a week, but a number of days all together, hours’ wise, sitting waiting for assistance to come back and get me. They usually do eventually. I had a supermarket shop ready to be delivered to my house and I was sitting on the plane for half an hour and I was like, if I miss my supermarket shop nobody’s going to have any food.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Totally. I mean, it is a real mixed bag as well with the assistance that you never quite know what you’re going to get. And I’ve seen it at all different sorts of airports, you referred to laybys there, where you see these, like, holding pens, almost like disabled prisons.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, do they look like holding pens? I like to think they do, I’ve never felt around the edges, I like to feel there’s barbed wire or fencing.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But they kind of do where there’s just banks of people in wheelchairs parked up and abandoned until the person in their hi-vis comes to collect them to take them to whatever gate they need to be at.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The other thing I love about it is that in some airports, not all, and maybe it doesn’t happen as much anymore, but the person in the hi-vis walks up and goes, ‘Mrs Lawson! For Bangladesh! This way! When’s your flight, darling?’

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] oh that’s a good accent, I enjoyed that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you very much. I guarantee some of our Access All listeners will have stories about flying whilst disabled. Please do share them with us. You can contact us about that or anything else on email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or leave us a comment on X or Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Emma loves a bit of disability chat. WhatsApp her now on 0330 123 9480. And don’t forget to text the word Access first.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s 35 years since the Americans with Disabilities Act became law. It was fought for by disabled people, and it was designed to protect them from discrimination on many fronts. In the UK we have the Disability Discrimination Act which came into law in 1995 and became part of the Equality Act in 2010. Someone who knows a lot more about the ADA than I do is autistic journalist and regular on Capitol Hill, Eric Garcia. Hi, Eric.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for being here. So, let’s start just by getting a bit more of an idea of what the ADA is and what it was designed to do.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sure. I think in many ways it was one of the last major pieces of civil rights legislation that the United States has passed, with the exception of most recently the Respect for Marriage Act in 2022 and the repealing of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell for gays in the military in 2010. And I think it is probably one of the most consequential laws because it is a law that somehow got conservative Republicans and liberal Democrats and moderates to rally together and actually pass legislation ensuring the wellbeing of people with disabilities. And it was done so with the idea that, for conservatives it was this idea of empowering people, allowing them to determine their own destiny, allowing them to earn a living. And then for liberals it was this idea that a marginalised group would be protected and have legal protections.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re going to pause you for a second because there’s a funny little tickety-tick-tick going on on your line and it might just be something that’s on your desk or by your mic.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I’m using a stim.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, you're using a stim! That’s so totally fine. I guess it’s just naming that then.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I went to a conference a few years ago, and it’s like one of these linky chain things, and it’s just like I break it apart, I fidget around with it, I fiddle about with it, and it’s just something that really calms me down, especially in nervous situations. It’s something that I do when I’m taking to people. It’s not that I’m not paying attention, it’s just it helps me with my sensory regulation.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I love it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Brilliant.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The ADA destigmatised disability and it allowed people with disabilities to participate in public life in a way that they otherwise wouldn’t. I’m using a stim toy, it shows that I’m able to live my life, I’m able to be myself and go about my day and not be discriminated. And it’s funny, outside my apartment right now there is a kerb cut and that benefits people with disabilities, but it also benefits new parents, new mums with a stroller. I’m an ADA baby, which is to say I was born the year that the ADA was passed. I don’t know a world where my rights as a person with disabilities weren’t protected, or at least in the letter of the law, the spirit of the law. An actual enforcement is a very different question.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, it’s interesting you talk about what the ADA was designed to do but it was brought about because there was an awful lot of pressure on by disabled people, wasn’t there? I’ve seen Crip Camp which is a great example. I watched Deaf President Now last night about the uprising of deaf people. Give me a little potted history of how ADA came about. What did disabled people do to make this happen?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, they did a lot of things. I mean, I think that there’s this idea that the ADA happened because everybody linked hands together and sang Kumbaya and you got a bipartisan signing of this important piece of legislation. But it really took a lot of time, going to your point about Crip Camp, back to the 1970s some of those activists who came up at that camp for people with disabilities, they grew up and they went and occupied a federal building in San Francisco to get a regulation called Section 504 signed, which was really a precursor to the ADA. And literally you had people with disabilities parking their wheelchairs in a federal building in San Francisco to get their rights. I was fortunate enough to meet the late Judith Heumann who was the leader of that movement.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know, you said The Deaf President Now, that was where deaf students…it’s funny, I used to live near Gallaudet University here in Washington DC.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, did you?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s the university for deaf people that’s in this film.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And it’s funny because if you go to certain bars it’s just like any college town, except that deaf students have ASL signs for how to do Jager bombs, which I love. That to me shows that yeah, deaf people are just like any other college students who like to get drunk and make bad decisions [laughter]. You see the images in the United States of the Capitol Crawl where people with disabilities crawled up the steps of the United States Capitol to convince the American public to pass the ADA. The deliberations were already happening on Capitol Hill and they were close to passing it, but that was just one of those things that sealed the deal for lawmakers and helped solidify public opinion behind it, because it was very controversial in the public eye. The New York Times editorial board was very sceptical of it; the Transportation Lobby lobbied against it; the restaurant industry has reservations about it. So, it was very important…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Reservations, I like it.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Pun absolutely intended [laughter]. But the point being that it was really important not only to change the hearts and minds of lawmakers, it was important to change the hearts and minds of the American public to show that this was a worthwhile thing. Because it’s important to remember, unlike civil rights acts of the 1960s, 1970s which didn’t necessarily cost people, it was just like hey, don’t be racist and don’t discriminate, don’t stop black people from eating at a lunch counter; this actually required businesses to change and make accommodations.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Some infrastructure kind of changes.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let me follow up on that point then. Summarise for me, Eric, what areas of life the ADA covered in this law back in 1990.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was public accommodations or public spaces, and it was reasonable accommodations without undue burden, which is a very fancy terms of saying that it’s public spaces like restaurants, businesses, it meant that you had to have an elevator, you had to have braille for bathrooms, you had to have to have captioning available for television, you could not be discriminated against explicitly for having a disability. Though of course there’s a lot of implicit bias with a disability. And I want to be careful talking about this, in that it’s a very passive law, which means it’s not actively enforced. The onus is still on the person with the disability to file a lawsuit or file a civil rights complaint. It’s not like there are active lawyers or inspectors making sure that the ADA is compliant in the same way that health and safety regulations or building regulations.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I guess following on from that, Eric – hi, it’s Paul here by the way.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How are you doing, Paul?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you think the ADA could be strengthened?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s overdue to make sure that it can cover things like ending some minimum wage for people with disabilities. It’s still legal in the United States to pay certain people with disabilities below the minimum wage. Broadening the term for disability. The thing is disability is always changing, and includes people with long-COVID. I grew up where a lot of friends from high school went and served in the United States military, they have PTSD. I think making sure that it’s a broad enough term to include as many people as possible in.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The ADA is 35 years old, that is why we’re talking about it. Would you say that that anniversary is a celebration, especially against the backdrop that we’re seeing politically against DEI initiatives and the like from the current government in the US?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It reminds you of the necessity of a law like the ADA. Donald Trump, what was he before he became President? Well, he was a business developer, which meant that he often had to clash with people who were trying to file lawsuits with the ADA. His one big beautiful bill that he just passed has severe cuts to Medicaid, our programme that includes healthcare for people with disabilities. When Elon Musk was leading DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency, I read about this in the first few months of the Trump administration, they cut a lot of grants that were meant to focus on helping students with disabilities transition to adulthood, helping them find jobs, because they were seen as too woke. They’re rolling back attempts to hire people with disabilities as federal contractors.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you’re finding that disabled people in federal jobs are losing their jobs or not as many are getting them?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Federal jobs or working for a contractor with the federal government used to be an avenue, it used to be one of the easiest ways to get into the middle class if you were a person with disabilities. And this is all fairly new, so it was this very, very small step to get people with disabilities the middle class, and it’s dwindling and it’s going away.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Well, obviously we don’t have a representation from the government here to talk about all those changes that you mentioned. Eric Garcia, thank you so much for talking to us about the Americans with Disabilities Act, 35 years on from when it became law.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you very much for having me.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks Eric.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Damian Weatherald is on the line, an inclusivity consultant, and Damian is a wheelchair user, live music fanatic, planning to go to 100 gigs in a year. Wow, that is a lot of gigs. Hi, Damian.

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Damian, who better than yourself to tell us what’s going on in the world of live music for disabled gig goers at the moment? Because there has been quite a lot of chat about some different issues.

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When I became a wheelchair user three years ago the difference was quite stark of the experience. But I have so many friends who are wheelchair users who won’t go to gigs because they think it’s going to be a bad experience, they don’t think it will be accessible. So, I’m trying to change the narrative a bit, show accessible it is; but show the good and the bad.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s your worst experience been so far on this project?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Probably a gig at St James Park in Newcastle. I went to see Sam Fender, a home boy gig. It was an amazing gig but the experience of the accessibility was horrendous.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What happened?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The access platform only had me as a wheelchair user on it. I would say a platform, it was the access seating which was in one of the football stands there that they would obviously normally use for a football match. I was up there, there was just me in that section, but they didn’t stop anyone coming and standing on there. I couldn’t get in and out to the toilet. I then got a mouthful of abuse when I asked if I could get back into my wheelchair space. I won’t use the language because it's horrendous.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right;

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When talking to the stewards I was like, ‘Right, why are you not stopping people crowding the stage, crowding the access platforms?’ Their response was they were told to let people have a good time.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh wow.

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And this wouldn’t happen at a football match, but they were happy for it to happen at a gig.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How did that make you feel, Damian?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it was horrendous; it put me really on edge because I couldn’t get in and out to the toilet, I couldn’t move without budging into someone, which I’m a gobby person but it was really intimidating. And the stewards just didn’t really care.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In a nutshell, Damian, your best experience so far in this project?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I had a really good experience the other night for a ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Proms event at Gateshead, Jade from Little Mix doing a homecoming show.Ìý The access was brilliant, we were right at the front, it was perfect.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We didn’t pay you to say that, Damian [laughter]. We didn’t pay you to choose that one. And obviously also I’d like to say the best thing about access tickets, apart from needing them to actually get to the gig, is being at the front. And when you’re not at the front I find it a bit disappointing to be honest. There’s a lot of chat, isn’t there, about tickets going on sale, I mean in general, not just for disability, but tickets going on sale and being sucked up by resellers and then resold. But that’s happening, I’m told and we’re hearing, to access tickets well, isn’t there? What’s the deal?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access tickets are hard to get anyway, especially wheelchair spaces because they are such a premium in the sense of there’s such a small percentage. You’ve got venues that might have one or two wheelchair spaces in a capacity of a couple of thousand. Wembley has I think something like 300 in a 90,000 capacity stadium. It is hard to get them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is that not enough then?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, it’s not enough really, especially some of the midsized venues, some of the arenas, they don’t have nowhere near enough in my opinion. But then when you then get them being sold on secondary sites you get people, I’ve been at plenty of gigs where people have turned up thinking they’ve booked seating, and then they realise it’s a wheelchair space, there’s no seat for them. You can see the arguments happening between the staff and the customer. But then other people will chance their arm if they think it’s the only way they can get into a gig that’s sold out, people will chance their arm and buy an access platform, even if they don’t need it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And that means that people end up on the wheelchair viewing platform who either didn’t want to be there or maybe don’t have a right to be there. Is that actually happening? Have you seen that yourself?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have seen it. I will use an event last year that I went to in Manchester at the Co-Op Live on the wheelchair platform I was on. About half an hour after the doors opened a young lad came and sat next to me, he was sat there and he spoke to the staff and said, ‘I shouldn’t be there, I thought I’d booked seating further down in the seating area’. He was a French lad, he was a student in Edinburgh, he’d come all the way down to Manchester to see a band. It was at the EMA awards, and he’d come to see this one specific band, and I’ve never seen a lad so sheepish and mortified. He sat next to me, I’ll talk to him because that’s what I’m like, and he showed me how he’d bought the tickets through Ticketmaster, resale, there was nothing to say it was a wheelchair space. So, he had no idea what he’d done.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, more awareness and more information even on the immediate ticket selling sites about what seating is what and what tickets are what sounds like it’s a good plan. Damian, I’ve left you with 90 seconds to tell me your top tips for buying tickets, planning a gig and going to your gig as a disabled person.

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The first one has got to be research. Before you buy the tickets look at the venue, look at what the access is like, and also look at what the venue’s policies are for how you buy tickets, how you do it, because no two venues are the same. You might have to ring up, you might have to email, you might need a Nimbus card, you might need a PIP letter.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me, what’s a Nimbus card?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A lot of venues are now using that. So, you have to register them, you have to, I think you can get a one-off free one, but otherwise you have to pay for it I think three years, and it has symbols on to say what your access needs are.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And next tip?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Plan your journey. Especially for example if you’re in London going to a gig you’ve got to work out your routes. One more tip I will give to everyone is wear earplugs because it helps protect your hearing if you go to a lot of gigs, like I do. It helps with sensory issues. And personally I think it means you don’t feel like you’re hungover the next day either.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Brilliant last tip. I’m going to use that one going forward.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who’s next, Damian? You’ve got I think another 61 to do did you say?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, who next have you got coming up?

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Next is Extreme in Birmingham, and then after that I’ve got a very busy August coming up with the likes of Pet Shop Boys, Robbie Williams, ACDC, Will Smith.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is a very eclectic mix of artists there, ACDC, Will Smith and the Pet Shop Boys.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think there should be a duet between ACDC and Will Smith [laughter]. And do you know what they could sing? You know what they could sing?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, go on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý More Than Words by Extreme. That’s the only Extreme song I know. See, I tied it all together and put a little bow on it for you all. Thank you so much, Damian Weatherald, our gig and live music expert.

DAMIAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s it for another episode of Access All. Thanks for joining me again, Paul Carter.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I do like to say your full name.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know. I enjoy it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul Carter. You can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can find us on Instagram and X @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. Or you could even actually send us a WhatsApp, a voice message or aÌý text message. Put the word Access at the start of it, and the number is 0330 123 9480. Subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds if you haven’t already. And you never know, there might be another episode this week. But definitely next week we have an Edinburgh Festival Fringe special with three disabled comedians. See you then. Bye Paul.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

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