ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½

06 August 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 170

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, this is Access All, the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½â€™s disability and mental health podcast. A bit of a different episode for you this week because we are focusing on the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. Now, there are an absolute shedload of disabled people performing at the Fringe, and we have picked out just three of them for your listening pleasure.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds because you never know when another episode of Access All will drop. And you can contact us accessall@bbc.co.uk is the email.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, the Edinburgh Festival Fringe takes over the entire city of Edinburgh for the entire month of August every single year. It’s a massive, massive comedy event. And we have three of the best disabled comedians involved this year, and they all just happen to be talking about mental health. Let’s start with internet sensation, Joe Tracini.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Comedian Joe Tracini is here, and I could not be more delighted. He’s got an Edinburgh Festival Fringe show coming up in August, Ten Things I Hate About Me, and it’s about living with borderline personality disorder. I believe it’s very funny because he’s very funny. And his showbiz stories and his mental health stories go back a lot further than that. He’s been in Hollyoaks and in CÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½â€™s Dengineers. In the pandemic his dance videos went absolutely viral, they were comedy dance videos. And then it sort of changed up a little bit and more of the videos became about mental health and the voice in Joe’s head, which you give a name, don’t you?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mick, yeah, Mick.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why Mick?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because do you remember the Rolling Stones – you don’t remember of course, you’re blind, you’ve never seen it…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What a fantastic way to start the interview. Thanks, Emma. So, the Rolling Stones logo is just a big mouth, and because I don’t like giving Mick too much of a personality I imagine him to be the Rolling Stones logo. So, again, nice to see you. Thanks for having me on the show. I’m sorry that I just opened by insulting you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, you haven’t insulted me. I have indeed heard of the Rolling Stones, but I did not know what the logo was so thank you for educating me…

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re welcome.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …at this point. Now, Joe doesn’t shy away from talking about complex mental health matters or suicide, so if that’s not something you can listen to just now come back and join me in a bit.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, let’s start by saying you’re so welcome to Access All. I mean, we’ve been huge fans of you for many years.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How are you doing today?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m doing well, which is very nice to say. Oh god, I spent about three years answering that question by saying I’m not dead, which was where I set the bar for ages. But I’m doing really well at the moment. I am feeling calm and sort of how I felt about five years ago.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve got a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s that?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The emotional equivalent of giving an eight year-old a job in a car and saying, good luck. I feel things wrong. So, I feel too much at the wrong time or not enough. It’s got nine symptoms, they’re all awful, and it’s something that is really debilitating on a day-to-day basis.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What are some of the symptoms that affect you?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All of them. I’m an addict so I can’t just do a couple.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] what are they then?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, unstable relationships, paranoia, dissociation, suicide is one of them – none of them are fun. It’s exhausting. It’s a really tiring thing to live with. The world isn’t built for people that are anything other than fine.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, because they just feel like the world is so far from their experience?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Suicide is a symptom. That’s why it’s very difficult to be able to say how you feel and ask for help when you feel like that when the world around you is wired to not know how to respond.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, why do you talk about it then?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I haven’t got a choice. I’ve tried not talking about it, and that is only ever going to end up one way if I don’t tell people how I feel. I mean, I’m very far down this road now so I’m not going anywhere. I waited a very long time to talk publicly about how I felt; it was a good few years ago now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But does it help you to talk about it?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý God yeah, yeah!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I’m not on my own. That phrase is so everywhere that you’re not on your own, but a lot of the time I am. I used to live alone, and when I used to read that you’re not alone, well I am though. So, that doesn’t help me. If I was thinking about it now, which I’m not, but if I was and I told you about it I can’t, you wouldn’t leave me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. So, by telling people about it they will, not worry about you, but they will kind of stick with you?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I’ve said that there, it’s obviously a very general thing to say, but you can only kill yourself if you're on your own.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And what kind of feedback have you had from either people in a similar position to yourself or people who love them?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Varied feedback. On the most part it’s very positive from people. Everybody’s got the same symptoms but nobody’s got the same life, so it’s all very well to have a list of things that you’ve got on paper in front of you and say, well I’ve got that too, but nobody knows why you’ve got that, and you don’t know how that comes out of your life. But particularly when I talk about suicide and things like that I’ve learnt an awful lot from people that have been affected by it in so many different ways because I speak to a lot of people that have lost somebody that feel like they can talk to me about it, because there’s no outlet for them to speak. I’ve learnt that there is an awful lot of shame that comes with suicide that is transferred to family.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, once that person is gone family feel…

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, they don’t feel like they can tell anyone.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right. But they know they can tell you because you talk about it. That’s a lot of responsibility for you. I’d imagine people come up to you in all sorts of places and have really, really heavy conversations?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s weird, but I love talking to other people about them. I’m sick of me. I’m everywhere.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] well, I’m glad you’re everywhere.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, in January you posted a video where you were really struggling and you talked about how unwell you were feeling. And it’s June now, six months later, and you just told me the great place that you’re in. What changed for you?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, a couple of things. Interestingly that video in January that you’re talking about that was the best that I’d been in a long time, because I did the video.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so you were well enough. Before that you were not well enough to actually do a video?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As soon as I said it out loud the amount of help that I got. Because that’s the other thing I think, we assume everybody else is all right as well. They might not feel how I feel, but that’s irrelevant. People struggle.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s all relative, yeah?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what help did you get then that has brought you to this place where you’re able to go to Edinburgh and do a show?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One is that I got so low that it was a new low, and I’ve found so many rock-bottoms over the years I was like, this has got to be, I can’t go any further down than this, because I was tired it became more of a what am I going to do while I’m down here. Because, again, I’ve very much committed to being here now; going somewhere is not an option. So, I decided that I couldn’t do the last three years again, even if I felt like I did, without that feeling changing, I just decided to run at life as much as I could in the hope that the feeling would change. And it has changed a bit, not massively, but I have been able to do things for so many days consecutively now that I’ve got something to be proud of. Not that I should be ashamed of when I couldn’t do anything for three years; that’s not my fault, that’s how I was.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But writing and working, this. I mean, if it wasn’t for the fact that I made a decision to not give up at the beginning of the year we wouldn’t be sat here now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You fronted an extraordinary documentary on Channel 4 last year, Joe Tracini, The Voice in My Head, but in it you looked back on your childhood, your untypical childhood at that because you’re dad’s Joe Pasquale and you were on the road all the time. In case it might have had some impact on how you feel now?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did it have an impact? What did you discover?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah, definitely had an impact. So, my childhood was mental, so it didn’t take a scientist to go this weird, 46 year-old energy in an eight year-old man. It was bizarre. I had a very odd childhood, and I didn’t relate to children in any way, I only liked adults.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what was odd about the childhood?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My only clothes were suits.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because that was the decision that I made that at no point any parent…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But that says that your brain was interesting from day one.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A lovely way of looking at it, thank you, Emma. And I don’t disagree with you. But it was also odd. I didn’t develop social skills, because I was a magician as well, that’s…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do magicians not develop social skills?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, no, no! Because you have to spend so much time on your own practising, which is fine, you’ve got time.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because you can’t practise your tricks in front of other people I suppose.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. That’s the depressing thing about magic.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But why did your mum just not give you a pair of jeans?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She was busy just walking about hoovering and stuff. It was a long house, we had a bungalow, she had a lot going on [laughter]. I don’t judge her for it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve been talking about therapy lately on the podcast as well. And the psychologist in your documentary – because there has to be one when it’s a mental health documentary, right?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There has to be an important psychology figure who comes in at some point. She recommended that you go to therapy to kind of explore all of this a bit more. Have you managed to do that?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can’t afford it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can’t afford it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, that was just for TV then really?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah. Thankfully what was lovely about doing that was I did have an awful lot of support during and after. A lovely doctor called Howie gave me an awful lot of help and friends.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because it actually said at the end of the documentary that they made sure you were supported. But, as you say…

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And are you on waiting lists?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m lucky in the sense that I’ve done a lot of therapy over the years and I’ve never, ever not worked hard at things that have been put in front of me, sort of through rehabs and stuff like that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can’t believe we’ve not talked about Mick at all.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, and that’s not a bad thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is Mick here?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mick’s always here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what kind of things is he saying to you today?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for mentioning him. I appreciate that. Mick is a creative decision in the sense of I haven’t got another voice in my head; I’ve only got one set of thoughts, they’re all mine, it’s my voice. But I worked out that I have more bad thoughts than I have good ones. So, the reason that I decided to create Mick was because the bad ones were invariably not true, and by making it somebody else in my head I could filter through stuff that wasn’t helping my day and stuff that was. And that helps me. It’s just a way for me to get through the day remembering that my thoughts aren’t real until I make them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Tell me about the show, and is Mick in it then?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mick is. But Mick is in it as much as I am. I don’t actually talk about Mick in the show.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Interesting, right. We’ve moved on?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve moved on in that medium. I have considered it over the years, sort of putting him in it or trying to do a talking to myself thing, but I decided that the show is about me. And in many ways I’m my least favourite subject, but if I’m going to do it I need to commit to it being about me. So, I don’t separate us in the show.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what can we expect then?

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m using it as an opportunity to vent and feel something and tell people about how I’ve been and make them laugh. It’s funny. My life has been weird and it’s been sad and it’s been shocking and distressing, and there’s been more bad things than good things. So, to take the edge off I’ve made it as funny as I physically can. In trying to do the show as it was, you know, I was having panic attacks publicly, a lot went on, I wasn’t coping, and to the point where now I’m so glad that I’m feeling a lot better because I’m able to make that a part of what it is that I’m trying to do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m really glad that you’re feeling better too and I can’t wait to see your show in Edinburgh in the summer. And thank you so much for speaking to me about it, Joe Tracini.

JOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks Emma, thanks for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks to Joe there. And listening to him I am struck by the fact that it’s almost impossible to talk to someone on Access All when they’re in the middle of a mental health crisis because they’re just too sick, they’re not well enough. So, it’s really, really important for me that we get to chat about these issues, these dark and difficult times when someone has recently come through them. And that’s why I’m so grateful to Joe for being so honest and articulate about his recent experiences.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Moving on now to Abnormally Funny People. Now, they are a disability comedy troupe and it’s their 20th birthday this year and they’re celebrating with a show every day at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. And basically the line-up is a who’s who of disabled comedians. And we brought in a couple of them, Harriet Dyer and Juliette Burton to talk about the Abnormally Funny People show and their own gigs at this year’s festival.

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, ladies.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know each other already?

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we do. We’ve known each other for quite a while, done gigs together. Last year we were in the same venue together in Edinburgh.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so we had a couple of corridor, ‘How are you?’ ‘I’m fine, surviving’.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But how are you really? [Laughter]

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Abnormally Funny People, run by Simon Minty off of Gogglebox and also a friend of the pod, and Steve Best, who we used to call the token non-disabled comedian, but they’re kind of the managers now rather than actually performing on stage, it’s been going a long time, disabled people doing comedy, various line-ups, various stages. What’s the history of it and what keeps you coming back to it, ladies?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, Simon and Steve I believe began it in 2005, Abnormally Funny People, and they had just six comedians. That was way before I ever met them. I don’t think, had you met them then?

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, no. I think I just got swept up in it. I can just exactly be myself and there’s never any judgement or anything. If ever I’ve got anything to do with them in the diary I always feel very full of joy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And because it’s disabled comics do you think, or just because of how it’s run?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Both. I think that it’s run really, really well, and just knowing that people care. But then also everything’s out on the table in terms of I don’t have to hide any of my access needs, or they’re proactive in taking the initiative and chatting about that openly. And we’re all having a laugh about the things that perhaps in other situations we might not be, so yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Disabled in-jokes?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Disabled in-jokes yeah [laughter]. Like, the most beyond the line jokes are with those guys back stage. I’ve been to so many gigs where I’m sitting backstage and I’m having my own neurodiverse kind of I just need to be completely silent, and then that comes across to other people who might not be in that world as maybe being difficult. And then immediately after I’ve come off stage in those gigs I’m suddenly a completely different person. Again, it seems to people on the outside like it's a weird thing, whereas with Abnormally Funny People they’re like, oh yeah, that scans, we know exactly what that means [laughs].

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s interesting you talk about neurodiverse because, Juliette, I’ve interviewed you quite a few times and we’ve chatted a few times and it’s mostly been about mental health. So, maybe tell me a bit about your mental health story and the newest diagnoses’es’es on your list?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Got to catch them all [laughs]. So, I was diagnosed with 15 different mental health conditions, a lot of them during my teenage years and then in my 20s, and then a couple more in my late 30s. And in the last couple of years I’ve been diagnosed with autism and ADHD, and suddenly I’m looking back on all my mental illnesses and wondering how much was that me trying to cope with the undiagnosed autism and ADHD. Like, my eating disorders for example, I see a very clear link for me – I can’t speak for anyone else – but a clear link for me of having these overwhelming feelings and thoughts and a busy brain and how do I silence that. Well, food is a way of silencing things sometimes. I think a lot of my mental health conditions are linked to that neurodivergence that just went undiagnosed for too long.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you’ve kind of consolidated them into a smaller list, which is probably easier to remember, to be fair.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got it absolutely [laughs] emblazoned in my memory now, and in my comedy routines, that I know my full list.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, go on then, go on. If you can do it on any podcast you can do it on this one.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All right then. I’ve been diagnosed with anorexia, anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, bulimia, compulsive overeating disorder, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder – which is why this list is organised alphabetically [laughter] – paranoia, agoraphobia, I’ve had psychotic hallucinations, I’ve been diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder, complex post traumatic stress disorder and also separation anxiety disorder, and yeah, agoraphobia.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why did you put agoraphobia atÌý the end, because that’s A?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, because I started to try to move away from my obsessive compulsive disorder [laughter]. And also that was a bit of a later one. Also DID, dissociative identity disorder used to be called split personality disorder, that one was fairly recent as well. I was like, this is interesting, basically I feel like the psychiatrist should just diagnose me as a bit much, [laughs] that just seems like a better diagnosis.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, you are never too much.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, not too much. Never too much. I’m just enough [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, exactly. So, with all those disorders, many, many disorders in your list, what brought you to go for the autism and ADHD diagnosis? What happened there?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was when I actually started dating my current partner and he was like, ‘I think you might have ADHD’ and then I started taking to my friends and they were like, ‘Oh yeah, we, yeah, we…’ a bit like when I came out as queer my friends were like, ‘We thought you knew’ [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, that happens a lot.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was like, ‘I had no idea’. Yeah, and I think that’s a similar thing with the ADHD. And then when I started going through the process of getting assessed for that they were like, ‘We think you might also have autism’. That’s part of why I enjoy comedy so much because all of those symptoms are actually quite useful in comedy [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why are they useful in comedy?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The hyperfocus and difficult attention spans, meaning that my mind sort of flits from one point to another point very, very quickly, and other people don’t see the connections. But that’s really good for improvising funny punchlines really.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, let’s go to Harriet. Tell me your story. Tell me what was going on for you when you came into comedy and what happened before that.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I think I’ve stayed clear of the doctors recently because I’m worried that more diagnoses will come. But I’m purely speculating, but I think I was maybe misdiagnosed with bipolar and I’ve got ADHD, and definitely got PTSD, da, da, da. But a lot of it overlaps and that, doesn’t it? I think I’m very happy at the minute, which seems to help a lot with it. What was the question?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I suppose I wanted to know a bit more about your early, before you got into comedy and what led you to comedy, the kind of disability story?

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think I had a breakdown as a really quite a young child, and I wouldn’t speak to anyone. I would speak to rocks. I had a little cardboard box lid with damp cottonwool in it with rocks in it. I think I got confused with cress. And then I was just chatting to these rocks. And then my mum took me to the doctor, and he wanted to put me on medication but my mum was like, ‘Oh no, she’s just eccentric’. So, then my mum would be concerned and then always take me to the doctor, the doctor would agree with her and then she’d go, ‘Oh no, absolutely not’. Well, it was only really when my passed away that I then accepted the help. Because my mum was wonderful, but I was just sort of like oh well, if mum’s telling me that there’s no issue. But then that went a bit wrong because then that didn’t help what was actually happening in my brain, so then I self-medicated an awful lot, which caused a lot of problems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what about comedy, how does that feed into that? What’s the connection between mental health and comedy do you think?

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When I started doing comedy it was totally by accident. At the time I was an alcoholic, I was at uni, and I had no idea what was happening at uni. There was a standup comedy module; I didn’t even know about this, I followed my friend. Then there was a standup comedy assessment and then everyone was like, ‘Are you ready for the assessment?’ I said, ‘What?!’ And at the time I was drunk, but I used to turn up with an Evian bottle with gin in it. And then this guy goes, ‘Oh, tell the story that you told in the pub the other day about how you died twice’ funnier than it sounds. So, then I told that and then it was made because no one liked me, no one wanted to work with me because they thought I was drunk – well, I was drunk all the time – thought I was a menace. But then it was mad because I told the story so personal, and then everyone that didn’t like me then thought I was the best thing ever and were laughing and that. So, I was like, wow, that’s mad that that’s what comedy can do. So, that’s when…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hang on a second. How did you die twice? I do need to pull up and ask about that.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I was in a nightclub in Cornwall, one that sells pasties while you’re dancing, and then my appendix burst on the dancefloor and I didn’t know, [laughs] and I was trying to dance it off. And then I was going out with a guy at the time that was very skinny, very hairy, so we called him the pipe cleaner, and he was like, ‘Oh, I haven’t seen you for ages. Let’s go for a walk along the beach’ whilst my appendix was becoming gangrenous. Then I got rushed into hospital eventually when I got home, like my mum called an ambulance. Well, she called the Kernow doc that used to be a vets, then he touched me [laughter] and he was like…so then went to the hospital. But then died and was bajoomped the first time.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, clear! Charge to the 200?

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh wow.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then got better. Then had pneumonia. Then went back in. I wasn’t plugged into the blooming nebuliser properly. Died again.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well I mean, that actually was funnier than it sounded, to be fair.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There you go. You’re welcome [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You used to even run mental health comedy nights, so obviously mental health and comedy are a thing together for you. Were they more comedy or were they more therapy, do you think?

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Both really. It’s definitely helped along the way, and helped me definitely get resolution on things. I’ve done shows about trauma and stuff, and then afterwards I’ve felt like, well I don’t want to talk about that again, but I have, and I now can release it into the sea to float away. And I’ve found that audience members as well find it therapeutic to hear people going through similar stuff and feel like they’re not alone. So, I just think it really does work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Juliette, you both talk about mental health in your comedy. Has how you do that changed over time? Because you’ve goth been doing comedy for a good long while now. What do you think, Juliette?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I mean I definitely think so because when I first started telling jokes about being sectioned and stuff that was off stage to friends, a bit like Harriet said, to normalise it a bit or – I don’t like the word normalise – but like make them know there’s nothing to be scared of. Because there’s tension when you talk about this stuff, so to ease the tension. Laughter can really help with that. The way that it’s changed for me over the years I think I’ve gotten funnier, [laughs] I’ve definitely gotten funnier. And the conversations around mental health have changed. I think when I first started doing stuff with Abnormally Funny People ten years ago I was talking in a way of like, let’s break the stigma, there’s lots of stigma and people had lots of misconceptions. And in the last ten years loads of people talking about it on stage. And now it’s things like weaponising therapy speak.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, what does that mean?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, do you not know about weaponising therapy speak?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No!

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s like when somebody goes, oh you’re a bit triggered; not meaning the actual real therapy term, triggered, which is like you get a flashback to something traumatic when you were younger and you get a physiological reaction. That’s triggered. But people are like, oh you got triggered, meaning they get angry or upset because you’re a snowflake or whatever. One example of weaponising therapy speak.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, I get what you mean now: you’re using terms that are really serious and useful or have been, in a very kind of broadbrush, surface way?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and quite often in a way that then belittles the original intent of the word.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sure. So, it’s Abnormally Funny People, it’s on every day during the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, men and women, physical impairments, mental health, neurodivergent, all sorts of disabilities going on there. What dates are you guys doing? What dates are you doing, Juliette?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m definitely doing the 30st and 31st July because that was a last minute addition. And then I think I’m doing the middle week, so I think it’s something like the 10th to the 17th, something like that, the sort of middle week of the Fringe.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Maybe check the listings people.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, definitely check the listings.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Harriet?

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The 4th to the 8th and the 18th to the 21th.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And we’ve got people like Liz Carr doing it, we’ve got Laurence Clark, we’ve got Lost Voice Guy – sorry to anyone I haven’t mentioned – Will Robbins, Shaparak Khorsandi, Ria Lina, Alex Mitchell, who we interviewed a few weeks ago, that’s another one.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, very cool.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wonderful.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can’t wait. I’m really looking forward to seeing lots of you on stage. And it was fantastic to hear your stories and get to chat to you again, Juliette Burton and Harriet Dyer. Thank you for joining me on Access All.

HARRIET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hope you enjoyed that. Now, as well as the Abnormally Funny People show those two comedians, Juliette and Harriet have their own shows at this year’s Edinburgh Festival Fringe. Harriet Dyer’s show is called Easily Distra---, which is basically distracted without the -cted, as if you got distracted in the middle of saying it. Juliette Burton has three shows, she has Best of Burton, she has Rogue Nights and Going Rogue. It’ll be busy seeing all of those.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve chatted about a lot of complicated and challenging situations on this episode, including suicide, so if you are experiencing distress or despair details of help and support are available at bbc.co.uk/actionline.Ìý

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for listening this week. Contact us accessall@bbc.co.uk is the email. Subscribe on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds, and I’ll see you soon. Bye.

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