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13th August 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 171

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, this is Access All. I’m Emma Tracey, and later in this episode we will be talking about exam result stress. And I’ll be speaking to Paddy, who has plenty of experience of just that. Let’s hear him:

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s an incredibly stressful time. And before one of my exams, the night before, I just kind of broke down into tears and was unconsolable. The pressure from school was high, but it was nothing compared to the pressure that I put on myself.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hayley Clarke is here again. Hi, Hayley.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, so glad to be back. Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s lovely to have you. Now, last time you were here you were about to go to Glastonbury. How was your Glasto?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was really good. It was like such a good one for the pop girlies, of which I am. Hi everyone [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And as a neurodivergent festival goer did it all work out for you?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It did all work out. There’s nothing I can remember, so I would say that’s a sign that it worked out really well actually. And we were glamping for the first time in our own tent, so that really helped because I had a shower every day and yeah, I would really recommend it [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that just means you’re getting old, Hayley, when you start to glamp.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely, definitely [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, one of the big highlights of Glastonbury for a lot of people this year was Lewis Capaldi’s surprise-ish set. And he was back two years after he was unable to finish his Glastonbury set due to Tourette’s tics and mental health. How was that? You were there.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it was really, really emotional. My sister and her boyfriend had been there when that happened two years before, and we were all together on that day. And it was sort of a big open secret that it was going to be Lewis Capaldi. And he came on – and I’ve actually got goosebumps just thinking back to it now…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …because it was so emotional. And one of my first ever dates with my partner was seeing Lewis Capaldi, so on a personal level seeing him was amazing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But I think he thought it was amazing too. He was very emotional, wasn’t he?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He was. When he first came on I think the whole crowd was so behind him, just as they had been two years before. And it’s the most friendly crowd in the world. And I think probably everyone was watching, I know I was watching thinking, I hope he can do this. Like, this is the most high pressure situation you could put yourself back in for, like, coming back into gigging. And I think within a couple of songs it was very clear, like, he definitely was going to be able to get through the set. And it was deliberately short, I think it was about 45 minutes. And he said himself, he was really emotional, and he said, ‘I’m not going to speak too much, not because of my Tourette’s but because I’m so emotional’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý His song that came out just around Glastonbury time, Survive [musical clip] it felt to me that that was a bit of an anthem for him; it’s all those kinds of phrases. And it got me thinking about anthems that disabled people have. So, I just wondered ifÌý you have an anthem that speaks to you as a neurodivergent person?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I do. And this goes back to before I was diagnosed, so this goes back to when I was really struggling with anxiety, which I still do but now I know a lot more about it. But my disability anthem I would say is Florence and the Machine, Shake it Out [musical clip].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a good one. I actually put it on my Facebook, I asked people what their disability anthems are. And Karen said that she was diagnosed as autistic in her 40s, the song that means a lot to her is I’m Still Standing [musical clip]. A friend of mine said that she uses songs that other people might use to work out to, to train, but it’s actually to train her brain into a place where she’s like, I can do this, put one foot in front of the other, let’s do this, let’s go for it.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m Emma Tracey. This is Access All. We’re a weekly podcast and sometimes we drop extra episodes, so the best thing you can possibly do is subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds. Just search for ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Access All. Have you done that, Hayley?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have, of course I have.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Pleased to hear it. Now, can I tell you, we had an interview with the disability minister, Sir Stephen Timms, a couple of weeks ago, and we got over 100 comments on those clips. The comments were overwhelmingly sort of disappointed. One of the clips that we put up is around Access to Work, which is a government scheme designed to meet the extra cost of being in a job when you’re disabled. And lots of disabled people are concerned about Access to Work as it stands at the moment. They’re meeting massive long delays for getting assessed for grants, having long delays where invoices aren’t getting paid. And what’s happening there is they’re worried about losing their job because maybe the employer pays for a support worker and then Access to Work pays for that, or they might get into debt because of taxi costs, and if those invoices aren’t paid the taxi companies are getting on to them. So, people are under a lot of pressure. So, Sir Stephen Timms said that he wanted to make the assessments for Access to Work grants more rough and ready and more standardised to cut those delays.

[Clip]

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because it’s a very personalised assessment involved in Access to Work we’ve just really struggled to keep up with demand.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But isn’t personalised really, really important?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What I’m hoping we can do is come up with an assessment which is perhaps a bit more rough and ready, a bit less personalised, but can be done more quickly so we can get the help to people more quickly and avoid these terribly long waits that we’re suffering at the moment.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we can see where he was coming from. But Hayley, people got in touch about that, didn’t they?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They did. So, S writes on Instagram, ‘Rough and ready is never going to end well, and less personalised goes against everything the evidence has been telling us for decades’. And they said, ‘It’s an appalling policy decision from Stephen, who’s been told by so many advocates and experts – including S themselves – that people with disabilities and their families need serious evidence based policy that actually meets their needs’. So, not very happy with that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Strong, strong words. And we had tons and tons of other comments.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Someone called Lorna wrote in, picking up on the minister’s comments that Access to Work is no longer the best kept secret and needs changing:

[Clip]

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s absolutely vital support as well. And the problem we’ve had with Access to Work is a huge increase in the number of people wanting it and knowing about it. I think, I mean we used to talk about Access to Work as the best kept secret.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was the best kept secret, yes!

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. But it isn’t a secret anymore. Lots of people have found out about it, quite rightly, and are coming forward to apply.

[End of clip]

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She said, ‘So we have too many disabled people wanting to work…okay’. [Laughter]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, basically I think it’s around, you know, there are delays, he said, because so many more people are accessing the scheme. And I think that made disabled people feel like, you know, actually you either want lots and lots of people to be in work or you don’t. And that’s why I pushed him quite hard on quicker fixes.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We also had an email from Sam J, and she asked a question that I didn’t put to Sir Stephen Timms but I have since asked the DWP. What did Sam say, Hayley?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sam said, ‘I would really like to know what is happening with the proposed moving the age transition from DLA to PIP, from 16 to 18 years old. What happens with children already in receipt of DLA when they hit 16? Do they suddenly become not disabled and no longer need disability living allowance and simply get cut off? Or will DLA carry on until the child reaches 18 years old?’

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Disability Living Allowance and Personal Independence Payments are, as we know – and we’ve said many times on this programme but I do feel I always have to explain – it’s the non-means tested benefit designed to meet some of the extra costs that there are when you’re disabled. Children get Disability Living Allowance, DLA, and they change to Personal Independence Payments at the moment when they turn 16. So, the idea the government is looking at is whether to change that to 18 because that’s when lots of other benefits change and it kind of aligns with other things that happen when you’re 18. Other people have also said that when someone’s 16 it’s much more difficult to fill it out. And there’s lots more around that, so that’s a really interesting question to ask. And I did ask the DWP and they said that the decision will be made in due course; so, no new news there.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know that Scotland’s adult disability payment can happen at any time for someone between the ages of 16 and 18, so that might be something that they might consider. We’ll hear more hopefully in the autumn.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much to everybody who got in touch. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk if you want to send me a message. Or you can get on our social media, we’re on X and Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s get on with some headlines, Hayley. What have you been looking at around disability this week?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I’ve been reading a story that I loved about the Gay Sign Variant. Have you heard about it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Not until I read the article. But I love it!

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, it is a version of British Sign Language developed by the deaf LGBT community. And the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ article speaks to two drag queens, Danielle and Mary. So, Mary first learnt it when she moved from Ireland in the ‘80s to London, and says that the language allowed deaf gay people to communicate discreetly, which during the AIDS epidemic became even more important in the midst of stigma and misinformation.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what’s the difference between Gay Sign Variant and BSL?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Mary says it’s more elaborate, more flamboyant and has more facial expressions.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Flamboyant is a little bit of a stereotype, isn’t it?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is. But that’s how Mary described it. So, for example, she gave the example of for a shop they will sign it like a handbag, or for shoes they will sign it like high heels, which I really loved.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, so sort of an extra, an extra version of the regular sign.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A more – I was going to say more flamboyant [laughs].

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý More fun!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A more fun version of BSL. I love that Danielle and Mary are working together to keep deaf Gay Sign Variant alive because I’m really loving young disabled people, deaf, neurodivergent who have a cause close to their hearts and they love it. Now, this is a very different story but this is how I’m connecting them, okay. There’s a guy called Aaron in Northern Ireland who’s set up a petition which has got 2,000 signatures, asking for free bus travel for disabled people in Northern Ireland because it’s the only place in the United Kingdom where that doesn’t exist. It is available for some people but not for all disabled people. And he’s just completely gone for it. I love that.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And I think it’s quite surprising to hear that the rules there are so different. in the article it mentions parliamentary issues maybe being part of the delays of trying to work towards sorting this out.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was actually decided that there would be free bus travel for disabled people, and then they decided it was too costly and they didn’t put it through. It’s still on the cards but Aaron doesn’t want to wait anymore and he’s pushing himself forward and saying this is ridiculous and I want to change this. And it’s interesting because we talked about taxis in Northern Ireland a few months ago, and Dermot Devlin, a disability activist was on telling us that there are incredibly few fully accessible taxis in Northern Ireland, and it’s very hard to get them in the evenings and the weekend. It strikes me that with very few fully accessible taxis and no free bus travel that must make it quite tricky to get around.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it sounds quite isolating potentially.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And that story about Aaron’s quest to get free bus travel was in the Irish News, which is a Northern Ireland publication.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ADHD is really all over the media all the time at the moment, isn’t it, Hayley?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is indeed, which I watch with eagle eyes. So, I watched the Channel 4 documentary, Do You Have ADHD? And I really like it. I thought it was a really thorough look at kind of bringing together everything people are seeing on social media, the rising education and demystifying, debunking, bringing in the science, but also going through the assessment process. Because we obviously know there are hundreds of thousands of people waiting for assessments, so it really went through how that works as well, which I thought was interesting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s good. So, it sets people up to know what to expect when they go for an ADHD assessment?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it does. And it shows a doctor’s assessment as well, like shows her going through the process. And it also had loads of prominent voices in the world of ADHD on there, like friend of the pod, Ellie Middleton, who I’m sure you’ll remember.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And my favourite part was they showed a neurodivergent friendly workplace at the end, and it had a karaoke room for breaks [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness! Can non-neurodivergent people go into the karaoke room? Because as far as I’m aware I am the other thing – what’s it called?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Neurotypical.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s the one, I’m neurotypical. But I would quite like to go in and shout Titanium on my lunchbreak.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think maybe we could use this studio, what do you think, when we’ve finished, karaoke room?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, we should have a little sing-song. Absolutely, why not? What did you learn from the documentary, do you think?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It made me reflect on my experience. And I’ve hyper-focused on ADHD for years now since I found out I had it, so I would say it reminded me of lots of things. I learnt a few scientific things, that I wouldn’t like to go into now in case I get them wrong [laughs], but around dopamine and around, like, neurotransmitters in the brain. I hope I’m getting that right. It kind of dipped into social media, but it didn’t completely discredit it. And I know a lot of people sort of self-diagnose on social media. I felt that I watched it and I came away thinking that was really good, that was really informative for people on the waiting list wondering how it worked.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You didn’t come away from it feeling icky, so that’s a good start.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Do You Have ADHD?, it’s on Channel 4?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s August, it’s that time again when students in the UK are anxiously waiting on their exam results. But for some people the stress of that is too much to cope with. We’re mostly talking about neurodivergent people today, so if that sounds like you listen up, pass it on to anyone who you think it might be helpful, because we’re going to get some tips and tricks and we’re going to chat to people who’ve been through it as well. Hayley, you’ve been writing an article about this, haven’t you?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What have you found?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s been really, really interesting to speak to different young people about their experiences and to ask for their advice. I think something that’s come up a lot, thinking ahead to results day, whether that’s A-levels, GCSEs, is having plans for afterwards, whatever that is that you enjoy doing, and maybe with friends or whatever that might be. And having that communication with your parents or guardians about who you want them to tell about the results, how you want to handle the day, do you want them to come in with you, is there a different way you can get your results, online for example. Like, for many autistic students the big school results day room can be very noisy and overcrowded and overwhelming when emotions are so heightened. So, I think it’s about trying to prepare as much as you can within that big stressful unpredictability of results day.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And what were the common themes that people mentioned when you spoke to them around the stress? Like, what were the common roots of it?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think common themes I found from the young people I spoke to were – and this is definitely reflective of my own experience – is the pressure you put on yourself and the burnout that can come from it. I spoke to one young person who you can read about in the article called Stefano, and he said that he collapsed at school due to burnout in the revision period just before the exams, because he was working just too much and putting so much pressure on himself and on those exams.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Okay, well one of the other bright young things that you spoke to is Paddy. He’s from Worcestershire. He’s got OCD. And he’s on the line. Hi, Paddy?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, are you all right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very good, thank you. You’ve been listening to Hayley there. Can you relate to what she’s saying?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I think it’s an incredibly stressful time, and a lot of it comes from the pressure that you put on yourself. I had a similar experience to Stefano where before one of my exams the night before I just kind of broke down into tears and was unconsolable. The pressure from school was high, but it was nothing compared to the pressure I put on myself.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mentioned you’ve got OCD. What’s your flavour of OCD? How does it show up for you and particularly in these sorts of situations?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How long have you got? [Laughs] Contamination OCD is a big one, especially I was doing my exams during COVID, the feeling of being able to harm other people with COVID. And confessional OCD, so a feeling where I have to kind of confess to something that I’ve done wrong. The feeling that I’m always having to go to the doctors and always checking my body. Especially during the A-levels and the exams it was a lot of feelings of just obsessing over my future, and this kind of perfectionism OCD where I had to study however many hours in the day and it still wasn’t enough.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And if you didn’t study that many hours, how would you feel then?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d feel like shame and guilt, and I’d just lie in bed thinking I’ve not…you know, this is my whole future ruined because I’ve studied three and a half instead of four hours.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, there’s so many different categories of OCD there, and so many other things going on for on top of the exam period stress, the exam results stress, shame just keeps coming up again and again for disabled people on Access All, which is something I definitely want to explore further. Tell me, what was the exam and the results period like for you? How did you feel every day? What was going on?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it was really difficult. A lot of days actually started with waking up with the stress because I had stress dreams about the exams. So, after my first exam I woke up the next two mornings having dreamt about them or nightmares about that, so that kind of continued throughout. And there was always a sense of I could have done more, I should have done more, doubting, I did my exams on a laptop so I was doubting whether I’d accidentally not include all the pages, did I save the work properly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh Paddy, that’s so stressful! I can feel, I’m actually stressed listening to you. Hayley?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it brings up a lot of emotions for me thinking about it, honestly, like I’m really glad they’ve done the article but it really, as soon as we started talking about this section I get, like, feelings in my stomach, in my chest. Like, it brings it back up. And it’s been a while since I did mine now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, because you really struggled also, didn’t you?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did. And I didn’t know I was neurodivergent at the time. I didn’t know anything about anxiety at the time. This is looking back to about 2010 now, my A-levels, and I really struggled. I had insomnia, I was getting migraines, I was vomiting when I had the migraines, I just had to lie in a darkened room. And when you have that guilt and those feelings of pressure to be revising, and I was really worried about getting into the University of Nottingham, which I got into and it was amazing, had the time of my life, but I put so much pressure on myself to get in and it felt like it absolutely had to happen. But I just did not know that it was going to go the way I needed it to go and wanted it to go.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And a lot of people have that participation, but in some ways it’s kind of a good anticipation, you’re like ooh, will it work out, will it not. This is so much more than that. Paddy, how did your results day go in the end?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My results day went well, really well. And looking back on it I look back in pride. But actually the results day I’d kind of say OCD ruined that for me as well, because I still felt like it was too good to be true, what if somebody mismarked my paper and I got a good score when I shouldn’t have.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness, that naughty brain. That naughty brain of yours!

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know. And it’s, like we were talking about before about all the different types of OCD that I’ve gone through, and it’s kind of like for me a disease that mutates.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And how are you now? And how did you get to where you are now?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m probably the best in terms of my OCD that I’ve ever been. I’m on medication, I speak to a counsellor. I still battle every day, I still have obsessions every single day.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paddy, what are you hoping for for yourself for the future?

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think I’m not 100 per cent sure what I want to do, but I want to find a way where I can help as many people as possible by using my experience. I don’t want anybody to have to go through what I went through at school or in my own personal mental health battles. And I hope that I can find a way to do that full time as much as possible.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you’re doing a really good job so far, and that’s for sure.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you, Paddy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much. Are you okay, Paddy? That was a lot to talk about.

PADDY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, yeah, all good. All good, thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. I hope you’ll be kind to yourself now for the rest of the day after all that heavy talk. Hayley, we’ve chatted about your article a few times now. What is it about and where can we find it?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, so I’ve been speaking to different neurodivergent students about their experience of exam results. So, another young person I spoke to, Lottie, she has just got BTEC results, so completely different to what we’ve been talking about, and she’s autistic. And she says that kind of different assessment method of having modules – I’m not sure if they call them modules – but having units and assessment as you go, and not having that big stressful exam results day at the end has really helped her. But yeah, if you want to read my article it will be on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website over the next week or two. Our team has loads of different articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ website around exam results. And we also have a new summer newsletter, which is exciting, which you can sign up to. It’s called the Summer Essential, and it’s packed with advice and ideas for parents and families about the summer, exam results and all things education.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sounds great. I could do with reading that myself.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sign up [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you, Hayley. Now, one person whose A-level results day did not go quite to plan is Dr Sarah Hughes. She’s the CEO of Mind, the national mental health charity, and she’s on the line. Hi, Sarah.

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello. Thank you for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, thank you for being with us. Sarah, what happened with your A-level results?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness, I’ll never forget that day. So, I had needed 18 points at that time to get into my chosen university, which was Hull University, to do my social work degree. I didn’t quite get the points that I needed to get, I didn’t get the grades. And I remember the devastation opening that envelope. You received your results by post, and oh my goodness, I remember feeling devastated. And I remember my dad at the time just kind of saying, ‘Look, you did great, you did great’, he was really encouraging and supportive and, you know, we’ll find a way. And then I sort of gave it a couple of hours settling in, and then I just went on the attack, on the clearing attack, which was how am I going to get into the university that I wanted to get into.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, clearing? Hayley, explain to me what clearing is?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, clearing is when your results have maybe not gone how you hoped they would and maybe you haven’t got what you needed for your first choice, your firm choice or your second choice, your insurance as it’s known. And you can go on the UCAS website and find out what courses might be available, which courses might not have completely filled up that you can then be paired with through the UCAS website, and I think calling universities and other ways you can have a look.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Dr Sarah Hughes, what do you think contributed to not getting the points you needed? Did the papers not fit you on the day, do you think? Were you too hard on yourself?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, look, I’ve since discovered that I’m neurodiverse, right. So, I had a diagnosis of ADHD quite late in life, I was approaching 40. And so when I look back on those days of doing exams it was about that really; exam processes are not suitable for everyone. And look, exam results really only tell us, don’t they, that you’re good at exams. They don’t tell you how clever you are or how hardworking you are. I know that now of course. I was a kind of square box trying to fit in a round hole. So, the exam structure itself would never have got the best out of me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now you’re a doctor, you’re Dr Sarah Hughes, a CEO of Mind, a national mental health charity. What did you do to get there?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I think that blind determination on one hand, but I can’t deny I’ve been lucky. But I worked hard. I realised at an early age what I wanted to do and so I’m one of those annoying people that when I was 18 I knew I wanted to be chief exec of Mind.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What?!

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, it’s a weird story. I’ll go into that another time. But I’ve known it for 30 years.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I actually want to hear that now a little bit, in summary.

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Well, I got my first job with Mind when I was 18. And when I discovered the structure of Mind I remember saying to my boss at the time, ‘I want to be the boss of Mind’. And so for 30 years I had that really clearly in my path, and so worked towards it. Now, I know that’s unusual and most people don’t identify at such a young age, but nonetheless I did know that I wanted to be a leader and I wanted to work in mental health. And so whilst the Mind job was a kind of beacon, I would have ended up as a leader. And I’ve been a leader in mental health for 20 years or more.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What were the literal steps you took to get from not getting the results you wanted in your A-levels to where you are now? What was the path?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I went to get work experience. Because I wanted to do social work I really, in order to get onto the course, and this was the deal through clearing, was that I would go and get some experience and that I would be then a walk through. And that’s basically what happened. So, a huge amount of work experience. I worked hard. I learnt from my colleagues. I took loads of opportunities for mentoring and coaching. So, if ever those were thrown at me I would take them. I put myself forward for training opportunities. I went for jobs bravely, not always knowing whether I was qualified or not but I had a vision, I was going to go for it. But determination. I’m also very lucky, supportive friends and family, so things really.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You sound hyper-focused to me, Sarah.

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, well you’re quite right there, yeah [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, ADHD, it matches.

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The people that know me best certainly would agree with you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Tell me what was the benefit for you by having a tricker, sort of non-linear path to where you are now?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it gave me a real understanding about issues around opportunity really, because it made me really clear, like I said earlier on, exams only tell you that you’re good at exams, so I know and can see that that happens in all sorts of walks of life. So, it’s given me that deep understanding about how people are disadvantaged and how the system doesn’t help us to thrive all the time, especially if you are disabled or you’re from a racialised community etc. So, I’m really clear about that. It helped me I guess problem solve because where doors have been closed I’ve had to find other doors or push doors open.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. So, what would your advice be, Sarah, to people whose A-level results day doesn’t go to plan?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the first thing is don’t compare yourself to other people. That is absolutely not a journey that will get you anywhere positive, so really work hard at that. Really remember that this is a point in time. I failed maths GCSE twice; it’s never actually stopped me getting a job, right. So, there’s also putting things into perspective and realising this isn’t the measure of your entire life, that there are always other options, that there are always places where you can find support. And just put yourself forward, and don’t doubt your ability because of an exam result.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. What advice would you have for parents or guardians of a young person?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, firstly stay calm. Stay calm, stay supportive. Remember that exam stress is a real thing, and that this means a huge amount to the young person. Even though I can say, you know, this is not your whole life, for the young person it will feel like that. So, stay calm, stay supportive, help them find solutions if they haven’t got the results that they want to. Celebrate the small wins, because there will be some. And ultimately hold on to hope.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dr Sarah Hughes, CEO of the mental health charity, Mind, thank you for joining me on Access All.

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re very welcome. Thank you for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hayley, you were listening to Dr Sarah Hughes there. Dare I say it, a little bit inspiring to me.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve been working in the learning and identity section of the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½. You’ve been talking about exam results a lot recently within your team. What should one do if you don’t get the results you want on A-level results day?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think if that happens it’s really natural for it to feel very sort of overwhelming and panic stations. But what it’s really important to try and do is to try and take a step back and to remember you do have time. So, on the UCAS website there’s loads of information. They have a search tool that’s the uni official vacancy list, so it’s the most up to date. But on their website as well it encourages people, both the students and their parents, to not rush into making a panicked decision on the day and to really think about what might be best for you. Maybe that’s doing resits the following year, maybe that’s looking at an apprenticeship instead. And trying to remind yourself of being proud of everything you have achieved, because it’s obviously such a stressful time for young people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And if you decide that uni is for you and you’re neurodivergent or otherwise disabled, what kinds of supports are available? And what should you be doing on the lead-up to uni and maybe as soon as you get there?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think trying to get as much information as you can. For example, there’s so much online now, can you go on your university’s social media account or their website and do virtual tours, and try and become familiar in that way. Or contacting them and letting them know, whether that’s the wellbeing team, whether that’s your halls of residence if that’s where you’re going to be staying, and letting them know what additional support you might need so that you can go there knowing that one, you have all the information that you could possibly have. I’m thinking of looking at campus maps for example and timetables, and have it all works to help you feel more settled. But also letting the university know in advance so that they can hopefully put some support in place for you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Brilliant. And listeners, tell us your experience of exam result day and your top tips for managing this period around results and university prep. And if you are going through it at the moment Access All wishes you all the best of luck.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And finally, I do love a chippie tea. Do you know what a chippie tea is? Ìý

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, of course I know what a chippie tea is [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I didn’t hear it called a chippie tea until I went to Scotland. It’s fish and chips for my dinner. And one woman has made an entire fish and chip shop, complete with chips and sauce and seats, out of felt. What an amazing thing to do!

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love it, I love it. I want to go and see it just to I can feel the tactile walls and stuff. And did you see, I don’t know, um…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can say did you see.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sorry [laughter]. And in the video when I watched it I saw that all the different fish and chips and different items have little smiley faces on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s so cute! And why has she done that? She does explain herself, doesn’t she?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know why she’s done the smiley faces. I just got distracted by the smiley faces, as I would, and thought oh they look like all the little cute cuddly toys that lots of neurodivergent people have.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think far fewer people would eat fish if it had a smiley face on it. The artist has anorexia, she’s recovering from anorexia, and she said that food and art and how that interplays with her condition and her mental health is a big thing for her. So, I was just wondering is there something to do with your neurodivergence or because of it that you use to maybe help your head or distract you or, you know, something crafty? Because there’s a big survey out today that says that crafting is excellent for your wellbeing. But I am not crafty. What do you do?

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was crafty when I was a primary school teacher, and I really miss that. But what I do, what I have been doing are things that I’ve become very obsessed with that have become special interests I’ve then taken on for my group of friends. For example, I hosted a Traitors day where I was Claudia where I got the full outfit and the wig and the makeup and the breakfast spread, and hosted a full day of fun and games in the pretend castle of my flat in East London [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh goodness. So, Traitors TV show, Claudia with the fringe. Can I tell you that mine is so much more boring than that I think? But blind people tell me if you can relate, because what I do is I listen to very easy to read audio books, like murder mysteries or romantic fiction, at double speed. So, I think that does the same sort of thing as maybe scrolling does or, you know, something that’s crafting someone else would do, or running someone else would do. I think it just sort of stops my mind from thinking about lots of other things. Also I’m so used to speech and words going into my head. But I think blind people we often live in our heads quite a lot because we don’t have visuals going on all the time, so we’re based on audio and feel and stuff like that. But I find audio books are a bit of an addiction, they’re a bit of a focus. They’re something that I do probably when I don’t want to do something else or to quieten my mind, or even to kind of be creative. And I reckon lots of blind people do that, but maybe I’m wrong.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This has been Access All. With me has been Hayley Clarke. Thank you.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you can contact us, accessall@bbc.co.uk is the email. Our phone number, if you want to send us a voice or a text message on WhatsApp is 0330 123 9480. Or you can find us on X or Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. See you next time. Bye.

HAYLEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

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