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27th August 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 175

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey. This is Access All. And later in the podcast we’re going to be talking about ME, chronic fatigue syndrome. There have been some developments in the research around this much misunderstood condition, and I’ll be speaking to the scientist and someone who’s been living with it for years. Here’s a clip:

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When you have ME you feel very powerless. You don’t feel like you can affect the world. And this was an opportunity to do something to make myself feel heard and to make a difference.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Kirsteen is with me, top banana, ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ researcher and passionate about many things I would say, aren’t you, Kirsteen?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I would say so.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me, is running one of your passions?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Uh, no. I’m mainly a wheelchair user now, so running is somewhat out of the question.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What about wheelchair racing?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh, now I’m new to the wheelchairs but that, that could be interesting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I’ll tell you why I’m asking. A, I’m thinking of starting the Couch to 5k again.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh wow.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did do it a few years ago, and then as soon as I finished it never ran another step. But we had an email from Alice and David Baker, and David has motor neurone disease. Last week’s show was primarily about motor neurone disease so we’ve got people who have listened to that and got in touch. But David can’t walk anymore, and he and his wife have bought an assistive running wheelchair. To be fair to David, before he got MND he ran six marathons, played football and that sort of thing, so it is in his nature to be sporty. But since then they’ve bought this chair and I did a quick google of what they are, and I think they’re all-terrain buggy chair thingies. So, Alice pushes and they’ve done the London marathon this year since, they’ve done about 50 park runs, and they are pace setters for the Great South Run this year. What about that?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow. I had no idea that that’s what you meant when you talked about assistive running. I would love that. I’ve had a go on quad bikes and things before and that is fantastic. Maybe that sounds a bit similar.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are you strapped in? I need to know more about this.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t remember being strapped in on the quad. But I was just using them to go up hills in Crete.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, what I’ve learnt from this podcast so far is that Kirsteen loves a bit of speedy movement. A bit of a daredevil, are you?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m just always trying to find different ways I can go faster. I’m very, very, very slow at walking.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I remember when I was learning to ski someone said to me that a lot of blind people who lost their sight love skiing because it gives them sort of the feeling as close to driving as they could get because they’re going so fast, something like that.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think there’s definitely something in that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The thing with skiing I suppose, if you can actually do it and you can’t see, it’s that frictionless out of control speed. As many disabled people will relate to, you just don’t get much speed up in an awful lot of your life, so getting those moments of, like, woo-hoo!

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s like rolling downhill with the wheelchair, and yeah, you feel like a kids again and you just want to grin.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you do a lot of rolling down hills in your newish wheelchair?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Not as much as I would like.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, come to Scotland, I’ll take you to a few hills.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my god, the hills in Edinburgh, that would be amazing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You could throw in a few cobbles for good measure.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh no, no, no.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’d get a more exciting journey than you anticipated [laughs].

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That wouldn’t be nearly such fun.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is Access All. I’m Emma Tracey. Kirsteen Knight is with me today as well. You can contact us, our email is accessall@bbc.co.uk. And if you haven’t already done so, please do hit that big subscribe button on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds and you will get a new episode of Access All down onto your device at least once a week. Sometimes we sneak in some extra ones, but you’ll definitely get one every week. Kirsteen, we’re getting on to some feedback.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Aha, what have you got?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You will not be surprised to hear that lots of it is about our story last week about Sarah Ezekiel. Sarah has motor neurone disease. She very quickly lost, as she puts it, intelligible speech and the use of her hands. She started using the eye-gaze technology. And then a company came to her recently and asked if she had, like, maybe an hour of her voice recorded so that they could make an AI voice for her from that. But she was diagnosed 25 years ago when we didn’t send voice messages and we didn’t record ourselves, we didn’t know to do that. So, all they could find was eight seconds of her speaking in the background of a very poor quality VHS tape. Here’s a clip:

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Muffled speech] she wasn’t getting enough milk and she was miserable. I thought, you know, I gave her a bottle one night and she was so much happier.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then they made a voice that she said sounds really like her original speaking voice. It sounds a bit cockney, it’s got a bit of a lisp:

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, this is my voice.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s had a massive, massive impact on her and her children’s lives, Kirsteen, but also on lots of our listeners’ lives. We’ve had thousands of messages about this, to be honest, thousands and thousands. We’ve had them on Instagram, the Womenkind Collective said that it’s a brilliant way of using AI. And Mau Sheri said they feel it’s one of the only ways AI should be used. That’s a big discussion within itself I think. I’m sure we’ll come back to the AI for good, for bad discussion. Blair1984 says that they lost their nan to motor neurone disease 29 years ago and they don’t have any memory of their nan’s voice, so this is lovely. So, lots of people saying that they would have loved to have had that for themselves as well.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m not surprised it’s hit a chord. It was an amazing story.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you catch it?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, of course. It was everywhere.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know what, we have had people talk to us about it from all over the world: a friend of mine in New Zealand, it even got on to the island of St Helena, a little known island sort of close-ish to South Africa. We’ve had emails as well. Denise was saying that she only has one minute of her voice available, so she now feels like she has a little bit of hope of getting a new voice made. But she is using the voice of her twin sister, which she says is pretty good. And that’s lovely, isn’t it?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is amazing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To be able to get someone else to bank a voice for you. We’ve had people talking about how the technology has improved so much. Anne-Marie said that her brother in 2015 got a friend with the same Yorkshire accent to record a whole heap of phrases so that he could at least talk in his own accent back then. But then her sister – her brother and her sister had motor neurone disease, which I didn’t even know often happened until recently.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it is something that does happen – and her sister lost her voice so quickly that she hasn’t had a chance to get a voice made for herself. And she’s actually Yorkshire, obviously as well, and had to use a Scottish accent. And that was 2021.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know, can other people do what the wonderful woman did last week and get this done? Can you apply to get your voice done?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, yeah you can. And that was one of the really big things that Sarah talked about last week, Sarah the lady at the centre of this story, she really wants people to have hope. The company that made her voice was a family owned British assistive technology company, and they use technology from a New York based company for the AI bit of it. Sarah’s setup cost £3,000-ish, and there are various ways of getting funding for that, so starting off with the setup, the grid for the eye-gaze. Local authorities you could look at applying for funding, and also the Motor Neurone Disease Association will look at funding people on a case-by-case basis as well. But Sarah says if she can do it lots of other people can. And she says actually she’s got a friend on Facebook that saw what happened to her and got her own voice made and is delighted with that as well.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been a bit of a stressful few months for a lot of people, hasn’t it, Kirsteen?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s certainly been very hot [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It has been very hot. But it’s been stressful around exams, holidays, potential benefits changes and the benefits bill. But as you say, it has been very hot. And what do you need to do when it’s very hot, Kirsteen?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Swim. Keep cool.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. And…hydrate.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah yes. I’m not very good at that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At hydrating, at drinking?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t drink as much as I should.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, do you know what, drinking the right amount of water every day, research suggests, could actually reduce your stress levels. Men are supposed to drink 2.5 litres of water a day apparently; women 2 litres. And apparently if you drink the right amount of water, so no less than that, you lower the amount of cortisol in your system, in your blood, which is the stress hormone. This story I think a lot of people are interested in this and they can relate to it, probably a lot of us around not drinking enough water, because this story was all over the newspapers in the last week or so. And it’s funny because it’s quite a small study involving 32 people. They checked in on 16 people who drank enough water and 16 people who didn’t, they gave them a job interview with ten minutes to prepare for, and they also gave them a numbers test, which apparently was quite flustering. Do you drink enough water, Kirsteen?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why not?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think because I’m a bit too lazy. And then it becomes a habit. When I say lazy because obviously drinking lots means you need to go to the loo lots, and it’s a bit of a hassle for me. So, I have to sort of consciously make myself drink.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you ever notice that you’re a bit more stressed if you feel a bit dehydrated?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I hadn’t, but it is something I’ll watch out for now that you’ve told me about the research. What I do realise sometimes if I feel tired for no reason I will try and think, have I drunk enough, because it can make you tired not drinking enough. But I do think this is something that physically disabled people do quite a lot is restricting fluid intake because they can’t be bothered to go to the loo too much. But you said something the other day which I found fascinating, I didn’t realise it might be something that blind people do too.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I know what you’re talking about. So, first of all with the wheelchair users and not going, often it’s not about not being bothered going to the loo, it’s about not having a loo to go to and not having an accessible loo, and it’s a lack of accessible toilets that can be the issue there.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. That’s a very fair point.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For me it is a mixture of lazy, but I suppose people could say it’s harder for me on a train, say, so a really busy train where there’s children and suitcases and everything. I take the train between Edinburgh and London a lot which is, you know, four and a half hours nearly, and if you were to hydrate properly in that time you most likely would need to go to the loo. So, I do A, manage how much liquid I take in if I’m travelling by myself; and B, my bladder I’ve trained, and I think a lot of disabled people would say this as well, I think I have a very strong bladder. I used to take a bus from when I went to school in Dublin from Dublin to my mum’s house and it was, like, two hours, and I think I trained my bladder back then. So, it’s pretty nifty now.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very jealous.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Of the bladder thing?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Of the bladder control, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sorry. Because you have MS, right?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which is known to affect that sort of stuff, isn’t it?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it makes you need to go to the loo more often.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, a mixture between MS and laziness…

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, definitely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …means you’ve got high cortisol in your blood. We have a young person joining us. Evie Roberts is with me. Evie is 16, she’s from the Isle of Man, she’s blind and she’s got a podcast called Talking in the Dark. And she has had guests that I am super envious of, so I’m going to find out all her tips and tricks and how she got those guests. Hi, Evie. You’re very welcome to Access All.

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, thank you so much for having me. It’s really great to be here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, you’ve had a busy couple of weeks you just got your GCSE results.

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I have. It’s been a chaotic couple of weeks, but yeah, got my results last Thursday. I was super happy with them, I got above what I needed to get into sixth form so I’m super happy. It’s kind of just on to the next chapter now with A-levels, so I’m really excited for that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Before we get into how you started the podcast and everything, tell us some of those guests that you’ve had on over the last while?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve been really lucky on Talking in the Dark to be able to get some pretty big names. We’ve had guests like Stephen Fry…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hah!

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …Niall Rogers, Fearne Cotton, Chris McCausland are some of our bigger names. But we’ve recorded almost 80 episodes now, and we’ve had so many incredible, incredible people. But they are definitely some of our more well-known guests.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And all of these people identify as being disabled, is that right?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Some are. So, the aim of the podcast is to raise awareness about disability, but in a super, super like fun and light-hearted way. I wanted it to be something that felt cheerful and fun and enjoyable whilst still raising awareness. So, some of our guests have disabilities. Sometimes my guests who are not disabled get curious about how I live my life, and so it’s talked about in that way.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, they turn the tables and they ask you questions. Do you mind that?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I see myself within the podcast as a bit of a kind of, like, almost, I see it so I always try and shine the light on them and allow them to tell their story. But I don’t mind being asked questions. I think it’s good for people to be curious. And the more people who can be educated the better, and so I’m fine to explain to people how I do things.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. You’re 16 years old, you’ve had almost 80 episodes, which is extraordinary. Can you tell me about how Talking in the Dark actually started?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. The original kind of founding of the podcast was an idea of my drama teacher at the time when I’d just started secondary school. I was start of Year 7 and he basically came to me and said, ‘You have a voice that could work really well for radio. Have you everÌý thought of starting a podcast?’ and at the time I said no. I was really anxious, I’d just started high school, I was a shy kid, I was getting my bearings, I had a lot going on. And so I said no, I said I’ll think about it. And every year, and when I say every year I mean every year, he would ask me again, ‘Podcast now?’ and I kept saying, no. And then it got to Year 9, I was 13, I was much happier, I was a lot more confident and I was like, maybe we should give this a go. Then we started thinking about what do we want this podcast to be about, and we settled on what I said to you before about raising that awareness about disability, because it made sense as someone who’s visually impaired myself.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did it make myself? I mean, it is interesting that you went for that rather than, I don’t know, Chappell Roan or, I football, anything else. Why did it make sense to you to talk about that?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think just because it’s such a big part of me. My visual impairment, I was born blind, and so for my entire life it’s been such a big part of my identity and who I am. And throughout my life I’ve had to live my life slightly differently obviously, and I’ve seen the stereotypes and stigmas that people with all disabilities face on a daily basis. And I’ve experienced them myself, and I wanted to just create a platform where we could raise awareness about that, but also just give people a chance to share their stories.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, absolutely. It’s really impressive that you were confident enough in your impairment, in your blindness at 13 to do that and to do it in a really positive way. I’m very impressed and excited for your future. Can you tell me now, this is the teaching bit now Evie, could you tell me how you started going about getting these massive names? Tell me your process.

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I would say it’s maybe less of a process and more just luck. My drama teacher who I mentioned earlier is still a big, big, big part of the team. We’re only a team of three: there’s me, my mum and him. Getting guests is kind of split between my drama teacher and my mum. I’m slowly learning the ropes and I’d love to get more involved in that side of things. But it’s basically just sending out emails or DMs, giving them a bit of a pitch and saying, this is what we’re about, this is why we would love you to be a guest. And then sending and just hoping and praying. And luckily so many of those bigger names have been kind enough to get back to us, even though we’re such a small podcast, they’ve been kind enough to get back to us and say yes. That’s why I’d kind of say I think it’s more luck more than anything.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, luck and perseverance I think. What do you think, Kirsteen?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think you make your own luck.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have you thought about being a presenter in the future?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d love to be, yeah. I mean, I want to study journalism or something like that at university, and then I suppose the next step would be radio presenting or something like that, or becoming a journalist. But I want to stay in this kind of field I think. I really, really enjoy it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sounds like you’re coming for me, which I’m here for. More the merrier I reckon. Tell me, who’s been your favourite guest so far?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s like picking your favourite child. Oh gosh. Stephen Fry was a super special one because he’s been a big part of my life for a long time actually because he narrated the Harry Potter audiobooks, which have been a huge source of comfort for me since I was, like, six, seven, so that was huge. And Chloe Fuller, a presenter and she also trained her own assistance dog, so as someone who loves animals myself that was really great.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah. Have you got a guide dog? Have you got a guide dog yet, the old question?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I haven’t got a guide dog yet, but I would love a guide dog. Unfortunately there’s no guarantee that I’ll be able to get one because there is a real lack of habilitation over here; it’s not something we have. So, we work with Guide Dogs UK.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, so there’s lack of habilitation, so lack of guide dog training, independence training etc in the Isle of Man?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, exactly. So, we don’t have a habilitation specialist. We have a specialist come over six times a year and they work with about six children I think. But they come over for three days, and so you’re getting two to three hours per time they come over, so about 12 to 18 hours a year.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow.

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, the habilitation over here is not as it should be. I would love a guide dog, it’s something I would absolutely…but there’s no guarantee I will.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you have a disability community in real life or online, Evie? Do you hang out with other disabled people, other blind people?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One of my really, really good friends, in fact two of them, are visually impaired, but only one lives on the island. I’m the only fully blind teenager that I know of who lives over here. I was lucky enough to go to a summer camp at New College, Worcester, which for those who don’t know is a specialist school for visually impaired children. I was lucky to go there last year so I met six or seven really amazing visually impaired and blind friends there. And in terms of other disabilities I’m part of Riding for the Disabled over here. I went to the nationals this year, we were a team of three, and I came back with two really, really good friends from doing that. So, yeah I have some.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s amazing. I made some of my blind friends at those sorts of camps and holidays where blind people get together. I can never express how important they were in my life as well, so I’m glad you got the opportunity to do that. She’s some woman, isn’t she, Kirsteen?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She is indeed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you have any questions for Evie before I have to let her go? I’d quite happily talk to her by the way all day, but you know, things to do.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was just shocked about waiting for a guide dog.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh Kirsteen.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I didn’t even know that was a thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness, the lists, the waiting lists. And then the hoops you have to jump through as well. I could…yeah, it’s a thing, it’s definitely a thing, isn’t it?

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it really is. I mean, yeah [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing. Well, you keep those networks going. I cannot wait to hear about what you do next. And always feel free to keep in touch with us here on Access All, Evie Roberts.

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, thank you so much. It’s been lovely. It’s been really, really fun.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much.

EVIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The largest genetic study involving people with ME, chronic fatigue syndrome, has been published in the hopes of making diagnosis and treatment easier. Research group, DecodeME, which is a collaboration between the University of Edinburgh and Action for ME, amongst others, have found eight regions of DNA where genetic differences were similar with people who had the condition in comparison to the general public. About 250,000 people in the UK have ME and live with brain fog and extreme exhaustion. Joining me now is Laura Boyles who has been living with ME for many years and took part in the study. And also we’ve got Professor Chris Ponting from the DecodeME study.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý People with ME, chronic fatigue syndrome, have wanted proof that they have an illness and that it’s not in their head. Is this the proof you wanted?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s definitely a step in the right direction. We’re all very pleased and delighted, and a lot of people are feeling validation. But it’s really also important that the medical establishment takes on this information as well. But this is definitely a huge step in the right direction I think.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me a bit about your life with ME?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have to keep a very calm life, very slow, not very exciting, which is not much fun for my kids. I have teenagers. And I have had moderate ME for about 15 years, so I’ve been trying to raise children. I’ve had to quit work because I simply couldn’t do both. And if I do something with the kids, if I leave the house then I’m going to really suffer; 24, 48 hours afterwards I’m going to be even more fatigued, I’m going to have headaches, I’m going to have brain fog, I get something that feels like my brain is on fire. It’s really awful.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you manage the kids and the house?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have had to make lots of changes to my life. so, I get PIP.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Personal Independence Payments, yeah.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And so I can get a cleaner in once a week, because strangely nobody else here is that keen.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have a carer who spends time doing all of the things that I would normally do: he washes up, he takes the kids climbing, he takes me to my medical appointments. So, that makes a massive difference to my life.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Does it feel a little bit frustrating when you can’t do all the things you want to do with your children?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So hard. I cannot tell you how devastating it was when they were younger and they really wanted to go to the zoo and they wanted to go to theme parks and they wanted to do all these things, and I could not take them. Now I still feel guilty, even though they can make their own way, but there’s a lot of guilt involved.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I feel you, sister. Listen, you took part in the study. Why did you do that and what did you have to do?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When you have ME you feel very powerless. You don’t feel like you can affect the world. And this was an opportunity to do something to make myself feel heard and to make a difference.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing. What did you have to do to be part of the study?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Spit into a tube [laughs]. And I remember reams and reams of questions. And it was all very well done so that I never felt tired, I never felt – oh what’s the word? Here comes the brain fog –Ìý complete, you know. ÌýÌý

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thorough.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thorough. Thank you [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s bring you in, Professor Chris Ponting, from the DecodeME study. Chris, where did the idea for DecodeME come from?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In large part it came from the community that Laura was just describing. I have a very good friend who his life was destroyed by ME, who I met at university. And there was a vacuum, a research vacuum, no one was apparently working in it, and I thought I could help. They have needed such a large study that would be well powered to find new things that would be helpful for understanding ME forever. And the kinds of technologies that are available haven’t been used for ME. And so the community realised early that this kind of study was required. And ultimately over a few years we together were able to persuade the funding agencies, MRC and NIHR to fund £3.2 million for this large study. In essence we had to go to them in competition with every other disease, and in the past that competition is one in which ME has lost.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why do you think that is, Chris?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think there’s a huge amount of stigma. I think because it’s a strongly biased, female biased disease. And I’m on record as saying that I think this is an aspect to do with misogyny.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, how did the study work? What’s the science behind it? You tested over 15,000 people with ME.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we have looked at the DNA differences that people carry around with them the whole of their lives and compared them with the general public’s DNA, and asked across the whole genome where is it that people with ME more often have particular differences.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And where is it?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We found that there are at least eight different places in the human genome where people with ME have on average a different frequency of these DNA differences than the general population. And that, because we’ve taken account of possible problems such as people’s differences and their ancestries etc, we’re quite convinced that this relates to cause, the causes of ME. And because these eight different places lie next to genes that are understood to do with the nervous system, they’re understood to do with the immune system, we can now say that the genetics is telling us it’s like the DNA speaking back to us about the neurological issues and the immune issues that people with ME have often spoken to us before about.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it’s not proof is it yet, and why not? How does that work?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Science has different degrees of proof. The process by which we gain most confidence is replication. And so we went out to other researchers around the world and asked them to look in their data to see whether there was any evidence that what we have seen they also have seen. And in four of the eight regions there was a modest amount of proof of replication, which is telling us that we’re on the right lines.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. But the study hasn’t been peer reviewed. How important is it that it’s now peer reviewed? And what happens if it fails?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, peer review often improves the manuscript, and we look forward to having that challenge to improve the manuscript. So, the reason we have not gone down that route initially is because we always pledged that the results would be given back to our participants first and to catalyse new research by those who are very happy with how we’ve written it up as soon as possible, rather than waiting a year or so for the peer review.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is no test yet, there is no pill. It’s early, early stages, isn’t it? What do you want to happen next? What will happen next?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve always said with DecodeME that it will not immediately lead to an effective treatment or a diagnostic tool. What it will do, and hopefully will do very quickly, is to light the path down which science should now progress. And now that we have shone a light on eight places, these are the places in our genome that scientists should now pursue vigorously, so that the understanding of why people have become so unwell is improved, and quickly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is there an appetite? Will scientists pick this up?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we have freely given whatever data we have consent for, and the results have been downloaded in the last week by dozens of scientists from around the world. We want to give away all that we have done as soon as possible before peer review to absolutely catalyse these new changes to science.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I actually have a question, Chris. We got a little bit confused in the office, I mean we’re no scientists for a start, but we also got a bit confused because there was an article a couple of months ago with you in it as well talking about ME being in the blood. How does it relate?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, good question. So, it’s a totally different study. It wasn’t genetics. It was asking whether molecules are different between people with ME, molecules in the blood. So, how do they relate to one another? Well, we were wanting to see whether people with ME have the same levels of molecules in their blood. And we found out that it was not the case, that there are 116 molecules that differ. It was very important to us to then come back and publish that paper, which we did, after peer review.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Let’s come back to you, Laura. Tell me how hopeful you are now feeling?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So much more hopeful. This is really shining a light on the situation. I’m hoping that it’s going to give a real push to other people to really get going, pool all of this information together. And test, treatment and cure is what we’re all hoping for, that’s our trinity of hope. And I really do feel like we’re moving in that direction so much faster than when I first became ill, and I didn’t really see any hope on the horizon honestly. Now I really feel like people are sitting up, paying attention and doing something, which is so important.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Laura Boyles, thanks to you. Thanks Professor Chris Ponting from the DecodeME study as well.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I want to thank you, Chris, very much as well personally. Thank you so much for this. It’s so important to us all.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lovely to meet you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re going to talk about something now which is relatable to lots of people with MS and other neurological conditions. We’ve got Kirsteen still with me, and I’ve also got an expert in this, professor of physiotherapy at Queen Margaret University in Edinburgh, Professor Cathy Bully. Hi, Cathy.

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, we’re going to talk about foot drop. Kirsteen, tell me what you would say foot drop is from your experience, and then we’ll get the science bit from Cathy.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m not an academic, but if I’m trying to explain it to other people it’s really rather like instead of having a foot you’ve got a wet fish hanging from your ankle. It just flops about and the toe goes lower than the heel.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it feels like a wet fish at the end of your leg. Cathy?

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think most people would probably relate more to your explanation. I would just add yes, it’s difficulty controlling the shin muscles that keep the toes up as you swing your legs through when you’re walking so yes, your toes then drop and catch on the ground, and that can lead to trips and falls. And it affects what people choose to do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what people wear on their feet, for example. Because we’re not just here to have a seminar on foot drop. Queen Margaret University in Edinburgh has a little company associated with it where you helped to design a shoe that helps foot drop.

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. We’re called the Health Design Collective. So, the shoe is a response to a gap that we found. So, as we were doing research into devices for foot drop we found that although the devices that are available can work for some people some of the time we wanted to develop something that addressed the needs that people were talking about, including something that’s more comfortable, easy to put on, is affordable and that works. So, we decided to incorporate the support that’s needed to help the shin muscle keep the toes up into a boot. And that’s what we’ve been working on. We’ve been doing that in a kind of co-production way, so we’ve been working very closely with people who have foot drop, and doing it in a very multidisciplinary way, so including people who are podiatrists, physiotherapists, orthotists, to try and make sure it's as good as possible.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But how does it actually work?

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you need to keep the ankle at a right angle if possible; but you also want to allow the ankle to move still if possible. So, the way that we do it is really low-tech [laughs]. We have elastic that’s anchored closer to the toes into the sole of the boot, got one from either side that crosses diagonally, and then goes and anchors itself through Velcro up at the ankle of the shoe. So, you’ve got this lever trying to hold the toe up while not stopping the ankle moving. And the idea then is that you can pull that elastic tighter on one side than the other side, because some people don’t just have dropping of the toes, they also find that their foot, they can’t hold it in a level plane side to side either.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, I didn’t know that. Mine’s just up and down. But it sounds like what you’ve done is a much cleverer version of what I did when I was first disabled. Basically I had a very old-fashioned pair of Victorian lace-up boots that go right to the knee, and I used to take the laces, tie it at the top, then take a long lace and loop it round. And these Victorian boots the laces went right to the toe, so I would then yank it and tie it to the top of my leg. And that was absolute magic. To this day every time I go in a shoe shop I check out if there are any Victorian boots like that, and I’ve never, ever found them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you were literally just yanking your toes up basically?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and it really worked. So, I am very interested in trying these shoes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do they come in different designs, Cathy?

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As yet no. What we really hope to be able to do is produce them in styles that fit different people’s needs: so somebody needs a walking boot, someone else needs a more trainer like shoe, somebody else might need something that’s better for work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me the impact that this has had on people’s lives so far? It’s in the early stages, but Janette has been using it, hasn’t she?

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. Well, Janette can’t be in this interview right now because she’s in Glencoe walking with the boots.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, so she’s actually on a hike?

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She is [laughter]. She’s also able to take part in the march past the Cenotaph as a previous member of the armed forces. And she says without the boots she would find it very hard to march and turn to face it, taking the tension off her feet to salute. And that means a huge amount to her.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, people with foot drop often are so focused on their feet that it’s hard to do anything else. Is that right, Kirsteen?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, absolutely. When I’m walking if I need to sneeze I have to stop because if I sneeze and walk at the same time I will fall over. I always look down when I’m walking; I’m totally scanning the pavement all the time for a little stone, a crack in the pavement. I literally, in fact this is when I thought right, this is enough with the walking, I’m going to start using a wheelchair, I fell over because my toe caught on a newly painted double yellow line. It was only raised tiny, but that was enough to knock me over. So, yeah, walking takes a huge amount of concentration, and I can actually see you couldn’t march.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right. So, it sounds like these shoes are going to have a big impact.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When do they come out and where can I get them?

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, right now we’re looking for a new manufacturing and distribution partner. So, if anybody’s listening to this and is interested in contacting us please do that, because that will be the limiting factor for getting them launched. We would really like to launch them within a year. And I think we have the information we need to do that. Then in terms of the NHS it takes a bit longer, but we are exploring all the pathways for how you get something into the NHS.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sounds like a no-brainer to me, Cathy.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can I just ask one question? I am presuming these don’t work with high heels?

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think we’d love to see if they could. I’m not sure if they would, certainly not high high heels. It may be we can get to a point where a bit of heel is possible.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, this is purely because I can’t walk in flat shoes because I’ve spent 30 years not taking off high heels because it kind of mimics the heel strike that you need. And now that’s why splints don’t work for me because you need flat.

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s something we should bear in mind actually, that might be a reason for including more of a heel for some people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You lived 30 years in high heels because it actually helped with the movement of your foot?

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. People are always going to me, ‘God why do you wear heels? Wouldn’t it be so much easier for you…?’ No. You think I can’t walk very well when you see me trying to walk round the office; if I take off my shoes I cannot walk at all. I’ve got to the stage I can’t really stand in the shower now without at least putting Crocs on. I don’t know, does this make sense to you, Cathy? I thought it was just something that I had.

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, it does make sense because if you’ve lost the ability to bring your toes further up and then yeah, you are creating a different heel really, aren’t you, you’re creating a different position for it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Professor Cathy Bully, looking forward to seeing these shoes round and about and seeing Kirsteen Knight sporting a pair in the office as well. Thank you so much for joining me.

CATHY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is it. Thank you Kirsteen Knight for being my friend today.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, I’ll always be your friend, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s lovely. Thank you. See you next week, bye.

KIRSTEEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.