ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½

3rd September 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 176

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA- Hello, it’s gone a bit autumnal now, hasn’t it? It’s a bit colder, a bit wetter, lovely crunchy sounding leaves under feet, underfoot. Anyway, this is Access All and later in the episode I’ll be speaking to Marie Tidball, Labour MP, about how accessible or not parliament is. And we’ll also have Bethany Dawson from Politico in to discuss the packed agenda that the government has around disability and mental health now that they’ve come back from their summer recess. Paul, you’re here. 

PAUL- Hello.

EMMA- I saw the other day that a woman has created a boardgame to show the barriers faced by people with her condition, which is Friedrich’s ataxia. And it got me thinking about boardgames and wondering what your disability boardgame would look like? 

PAUL- Yes, I saw this boardgame too. I love the idea. Well, I fall over a lot. But also you mentioned autumn in your lovely little intro there, and that’s the most inaccessible season for me. 

EMMA- Is it? 

PAUL- Because leaves underfoot are not good for me. I fall over a lot, and leaves are very slippery and wet and they are like kryptonite to my little prosthetic feet. So, maybe we can have a square for that on the board. Maybe it’s just things I fall over on. 

EMMA- I think my disability boardgame would be a form of snakes and ladders. 

PAUL- Ooh.

EMMA- Okay, roll the dice for me, Paul.

PAUL- Tic, tic, tic [laughs]. 

EMMA- Right, what number did you get? 

PAUL- Four. 

EMMA- Right, count yourself along. What would your counter look like? 

PAUL- A dog.

EMMA- Okay, count your little dog along. 

PAUL- Tic, tic, tic, tic.

EMMA- Right, you have landed on a ladder. 

PAUL- Oh. 

EMMA- Yeah. They have created a new leaf device that gets rid of wet leaves as soon as they arrive on the scene. 

PAUL- Love it.

EMMA- So, your life has got better; up the ladder you go. 

PAUL- Oh, I see where this… I’m enjoying this. This is a good idea. I like this. 

EMMA- Are you up the ladder? 

PAUL- Yeah, I’m up the ladder, although ladders are not accessible; it’s a lift. Snakes and lifts. 

EMMA- Oh, there’s a lift [laughs]. Okay, so roll the dice again please. 

PAUL- Tic, tic, tic. 

EMMA- What number did you get this time? 

PAUL- Seven. 

EMMA- Oh, lucky for some, unlucky for others. Take your little doggy counter over seven please. 

PAUL- Tic, tic, tic, tic, tic, tic, tic. 

EMMA- Oh Paul, sad face, you’ve landed on a snake. Right back down to the bottom row again. 

PAUL- Sad times. 

EMMA- Shall I tell you why? 

PAUL- Why? 

EMMA- Because the leaf blower extractor thingy has turned out to be too expensive to run in every area and too difficult to maintain, so actually they’ve taken them out of service. They’re not going to use them anymore. You’re back where you started. 

PAUL- [Sighs] sad times. 

EMMA- So, this Friedrich’s ataxia boardgame lady and us are not the only people to create disability boardgames, you’ll be very pleased to know. 

PAUL- Very pleased to know. 

EMMA- There is a game called Legless in London. Can you guess what that’s about? 

PAUL- Legless, is it my life? [Laughter] 

EMMA- Squared, your life squared, physically and…

PAUL- I was going to say, I mean literally in every sense. Is it?

EMMA- No. It aims to keep disability culture and history alive by showing what it was like in Victorian London for lower limb – sorry Paul, these guys have knees – lower limb amputees. 

PAUL- Oh my goodness, this sounds amazing!

EMMA- I wonder what the object of the exercise is. I guess it’s to get across London without dying. 

PAUL- I imagine so, yeah, without falling over. I imagine it was not the easiest of times to live when you wearing prosthetics I imagine. 

EMMA- Yeah, and imagine what the prosthetics were like as well. 

PAUL- So, I’m looking at the board in front of me now, Emma, and there’s a few nods to Victorian London. We have slums, and then there’s a gin palace, that sounds good, doesn’t it? Oh, there’s one here, it’s artificial leg store. That sounds good, doesn’t it? 

EMMA- Oh.

PAUL- We absolutely need to play this. 

EMMA- I’ll tell you what, next time I come to London let’s get together and play Legless in London. 

PAUL- Legless in London, you’re on. 

MUSIC- Theme music. 

EMMA- Hello. I am Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the weekly disability and mental health podcast from ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News. We’ve got Paul Carter here today. He’s my friend for this episode – and always. 

PAUL- I was going to say, not just for the episode I hope. 

EMMA- No, not just for the episode [laughter]. Love you long time, Paul Carter. You can subscribe to us, please do, on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds. And then that way you will get every single episode onto your device, our weekly episodes and those little extra ones we throw in every now and again as well. And if you could pass it on to your friends and family and anybody you know, stick a QR code up on the bus, whatever, that would be great. Shall we get on with some headlines? 

PAUL- Let’s do it. 

EMMA- Which one shall we start with, Paul Carter? 

PAUL- Pavement parking, that’s always a big issue, isn’t it? 

EMMA- It does give me the rage in fairness. This was a story in a few papers, I saw it in The Independent, where a survey was done on some drivers about whether or not they think that pavement parking should be banned. It’s interesting because it’s already banned in London and in Scotland. It’s been banned in Scotland since 2023. It’s very, very, very difficult to enforce because they say that there aren’t enough parking spaces around and cars are forced to park on the pavement. But it’s a problem for disabled people specifically, isn’t it, pavement parking?

PAUL- It is, but it’s not just disabled people; it’s lots of people, mothers with pushchairs, all that kind of thing. It’s a bit of a nuisance, isn’t it? I mean, because it is dangerous, isn’t it, if there’s something parked on the pavement and you can’t get past it means that you are forced out onto the road into moving traffic and the like. 

EMMA- Yes, so you’re forced out onto the road. If you’re a blind person coming at speed with your cane you’d be absolutely not expecting to come upon a car, so you might smack straight into it. Getting past it on the inside, if there is a little bit of room, you’re dealing with overhanging foliage, mirrors. But the biggest thing is the anxiety I think of being on the road when you are not usually, if you aren’t able to cope with pavement parking, if you find it an issue and you’re anxious about it, you’re not moving that quickly when you’re on the road. So, you’re either dealing with a wheelchair or you’re a blind person out of your comfort zone because that’s not part of your route to go out on the road, so you don’t know what you’re dealing with.

PAUL- And I’ve seen a couple of videos recently on the socials as well of people with guide dogs, and the dogs don’t know what to do in that situation because there’s not enough room to get past the car, but also they don’t want to go on the road either. So, you end up in a sort of state of paralysis almost. 

EMMA- Yeah, so you either have to encourage the dog out onto the road because that’s the only way around it, and work the dog. Or if the dog’s not willing to do that because they’re like, it’s a road, we’re going to get killed, why would I do that, you have to put down the harness, take the lead and then you have to blindly feel your way around someone’s manky car and feel up to the other end of it, and then get the harness back up in your hand and…

PAUL- Terrifying. 

EMMA- …then encourage the dog back onto the pavement. So, wash your cars people. 

PAUL- [Laughs] and don’t park on the pavement. 

EMMA- Oh yeah, sorry, and don’t park on the pavement, absolutely. It was interesting this survey, 42% of drivers said that it should be outright banned everywhere. 42%, would have liked to have seen that a little bit higher maybe. 

PAUL- Yeah. 

EMMA- 41% said that it should be banned on specific roads. How hard would that be to enforce? 

PAUL- How would you know what that is? That’s difficult, isn’t it? 

EMMA- Well, apparently if it’s specific roads the specific councils have to make those changes and they have to bring in that legislation. So, it sounds like it would be a very expensive and time-consuming process. But it was all over ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Breakfast the other day, lots of disabled people’s stories. It is just a big problem, but I think there’s a lot more to it than just lazy drivers parking on pavements. I think oftentimes there’s nowhere else for them to park.

Right, shall we move on? 

PAUL- Yes, absolutely. So, this is one that I saw that was quite interesting. It’s a pilot at the moment in Stoke-on-Trent which is introducing free bus travel for disabled people before 9:30am, because in some places if you have a disabled bus pass you can only actually travel for free after 9:30. Which I’ve always found strange because it sort of implies that we don’t have anything better to do in the mornings, like go to work. 

EMMA- I’ve also heard that hospital appointments can be booked in pre 9:30 as well. 

PAUL- Yeah. 

EMMA- So, even if you’re going down the medical route or the route that disabled people only leave to go to the doctor or the day centre, both of them could also be available before 9:30.

PAUL- Absolutely. It’s a very sort of strange…I often wonder how these things are implemented. That was obviously a decision that was made at some point. 

EMMA- But this new pilot means that you’re free all the time, 24 hours?

PAUL- Yes. So, well done Stoke-on-Trent, and hopefully that becomes something much more widespread. 

EMMA- Can we talk about sheep now? 

PAUL- [Laughs] yes we can. This is my favourite story of the week. Have you seen, Emma, the disabled sheep using a power chair? 

EMMA- Well, I’m blind for a start. I have read about it though. 

PAUL- [Laughs] I meant seen in the wider sense, but yeah. 

EMMA- I know what you mean. I suppose specifically I wish… Maybe actually if I ever do obtain vision one of the first things I would in fact like to see with my eyes, forget about my children’s faces etc…

PAUL- That’s a bold statement [laughs]. 

EMMA- …is a sheep driving a powered wheelchair. Tell me what it looks like, tell me about this sheep.

PAUL- So, the sheep is called Moko. It’s a seven year-old sheep. It lost its hind legs when it was a lamb. 

EMMA- Aw.

PAUL- And walked a while with prosthetic legs. There are also videos of that, it’s amazing. But then over time its front legs got weaker and more damaged, so now it uses a modified powerchair. And there was a video going around this week of Moko driving along – I actually don’t know if Moko is a male or a female sheep – but of Moko driving…

EMMA- Could you not tell by how it was driving? 

PAUL- [Laughs] wow, you went there! There’s a video of Moko driving its chair to go and see its dad, as in human owner, carer, to go and get a treat. It’s amazing. 

EMMA- Oh! What’s a sheep treat? 

PAUL- I don’t know. What do sheep eat? Grass? 

EMMA- Sheep eat [laughter]. 

PAUL- But it is amazing. It is genuinely amazing.

EMMA- Tell me, how is it doing it? What way is it sitting? What is using to press the joystick?

PAUL- It’s like a platform, so it’s kind of lying on this flat sort of like seat, I guess you’d call it. 

EMMA- Nice. 

PAUL- And then it’s got a joystick, just like regular powerchairs do, and it uses its little sheep chin to nudge the joystick and move around. 

EMMA- Oh my gosh, Paul, that is ridiculous. 

PAUL- It is adorable, yeah. It’s amazing. 

EMMA- And the poor old sheep was overcompensating on his front or her front legs for years, and its front legs were like I’ve had enough of this, thank you very much. 

PAUL- Yeah.

EMMA- Aw.

PAUL- So, there are some really adorable videos of it tottering around on these little prosthetic legs as well. 

EMMA- If you’ve seen other animals doing this please send them in to us. 

PAUL- Absolutely. 

EMMA- Or mobility aids of any kind being used by creatures of any kind. 

PAUL- I mean, dog wheelchairs are a big thing. I absolutely love dogs in wheelchairs. Have you seen these where they have wheels for back legs? 

EMMA- Yeah, they’ve got these little trolleys on their back legs, right? 

PAUL- Yeah. 

EMMA- I know, but they’re not using a joystick. 

PAUL- No. It’s the next level, isn’t it? 

EMMA- Even assistance dogs for wheelchair users you don’t see them on their lap actually driving the chair for them, do you? 

PAUL- No. 

EMMA- You just wouldn’t have thought sheep were – sorry sheep – intelligent enough. 

PAUL- No, I know, right? 

EMMA- Maybe a crow could have done it. Crows can talk and everything, sometimes. Have you ever heard a crow talking? 

PAUL- Yeah. Do you not follow the talking crows on TikTok?

EMMA- Yeah, I do actually [laughter]. But other animals, monkeys maybe, but I never would have considered sheep. 

I really, really love it when people get in touch. I’m a huge fan of the voice message, which you can send me on WhatsApp. Just put the word Access at the start. And the number is 0330 123 9480. I haven’t had one of them in a little while, but I have had some emails. Remember I interviewed Stephen Timms recently, the disability minister? 

PAUL- Yeah.

EMMA- Well, Caroline was listening, and she’s been medically retired from the NHS for a little while now, but she’s kind of starting to think that she might be able to try a little bit of some sort of work. She listened to the interview and she was really interested in the Access to Work chat, which we did quite a lot of, and also the Right to Try scheme, which is this scheme where people will be able to apparently try a job without losing their health component of Universal Credit or any other benefits. We don’t know the full details of that yet but she was interested to hear more about that. So, what I think is great about that, Paul, is that people are listening and they are finding things that are relatable to them, and then they’re going and finding more information, and maybe it’s helping them to make some decisions and figure out what they do next. 

PAUL- Totally. And it shows that what we chat about actually has an impact, doesn’t it, which is nice to know. 

EMMA- Well, speaking of our chats actually, Paul, someone specifically emailed me, Dawn, who’s a yoga teacher, to tell me that she met someone with the same eye condition as her in a yoga class, Stargardt’s disease, and I feel like they were so inspired by our chat – she didn’t specifically say this, but she did email me to tell me which makes me think that she was – that they sat down and recorded a big chat between the two of them all about what they had in common. And they found their talking to each other and having a bit of community so inspiring that they felt that it should be recorded, and I just thought that was lovely.

PAUL- Oh, that is really lovely. 

EMMA- I know. I think disability chat, I don’t know if many people understand from my perspective how important it is to share experiences and to talk about things that only people who either have the same thing as you or who are disabled as well can get. Do you find that as well? 

PAUL- Oh, a million per cent. And genuinely that’s why I love our chats. It’s actually really rare that you get to have these conversations with someone that gets it, so yeah, it’s nice. 

EMMA- It is nice. And Rob got in touch about the A-levels results episodes. We’d love to hear, listeners, how you’re getting on and how things are shaking out for you in terms of university or other options after your results. We did a really great full episode about that a couple of weeks ago. He said that he did his A-levels 50 years ago, but because of what he calls psychological problems, but also bullying by kids and teachers who didn’t understand him, he says he got mediocre results. But having listened to the podcast and listening to the results episode he realises now that school wasn’t the right place for him, and that actually if he was doing school now he'd have been better off learning at home and learning in his own ways. I think it’s so interesting when we get messages from people who are further on in their journey, older people listening to what’s happening now and then reflecting back on their own situation and thinking about it differently as well. 

Listen, I absolutely love hearing from you, as I say. Your feedback is all read. We don’t always and can’t always respond to everything, but we read absolutely everything and we appreciate everything. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, and we are on X and Instagram @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. 

MUSIC- We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media, and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News website. 

EMMA- MPs came back from their summer recess this week, and MP Marie Tidball is here. She has been an MP for just over a year but she has definitely made her mark. She’s one of the few visibly disabled MPs, and earlier this year she made an impassioned speech which was critical of the government’s initial benefits reform bill. More about that later. But how accessible are the halls of Westminster if you’re disabled. Marie Tidball took James Vincent from Look North around the halls of Westminster to show him the accessibility challenges. Here’s a wee clip from that:

[Clip]

MARIE- Within about five months of being here I think I’d had about six conversations with senior people about door handles, and I kind of said if I have to have another conversation about why we need to make the door handles more accessible I will chain myself to them, rather irreverently I might say. 

[End of clip]

EMMA- That’s fighting talk there, Marie Tidball. You’re very welcome. 

MARIE- Oh, thank you. Well, there’s no messing around here. 

EMMA- The halls of Westminster sound like a tricky place to work if you’re disabled. Are they? 

MARIE- So, initially the biggest barrier for me personally was there wasn’t a system to reserve a seat in the chamber. Historically people have had to go in early in the morning and use prayer cards to reserve a seat for themselves. People don’t own a seat in parliament; they sit where they need to in a particular debate as relevant. And there wasn’t a reasonable adjustments process to make sure that disabled members could reserve a seat because they needed to. Like me, I’m blind in one eye so I need to see a speaker out of the eye that I can see out of, so I need to be quite near the speaker. I also need to be somewhere where my legs can be more comfortable, so I find the centre of one of the rows on the government benches is most comfortable to me. So, we overcame that by talking to the speakers team and the clerks, and they put in a process where clerks will reserve seats for disabled members when they need to if they’re going to go in and make a speech for a particular debate. So, that’s made a big difference. We have now seen one of the male toilets turned into an accessible disabled toilet near the chamber, which is absolutely fantastic because it was a long old distance from the chamber to an accessible toilet. Coming back I have been greeted by doors which open with either fantastic touch sensors or by push buttons which makes a massive difference. And in Portcullis House, which is often used by visitors and those contributing to select committees, has now got an accessible toilet with touch door handles. So, we’re already seeing some really positive, tangible physical changes to the space within parliament. 

EMMA- So, you’ve been able to make a change already. Would you mind describing just briefly what you mean about making your legs more comfortable and how disability is for you? 

MARIE- Yeah, sure. So, I have a congenital disability that I was born with that affects all four limbs, so I have foreshortened legs, I have an amputation at my right ankle so I wear a prosthetic limb. I also have foreshortened arms which are visible to people when they meet me. And I have a digit on each hand, so my arms stop around my elbow and I have a digit on each hand. I also have other impairments in walking because of the surgeries that I’ve had done to my hips and things as well. But I also happen to be blind in my left eye so that affects me too. 

EMMA- I think we just heard the bells of Big Ben there, did we?

MARIE- We did, yeah we did. My office is close by. 

EMMA- Amazing. 

MARIE- In fact that was one of the first of the excellent reasonable adjustments that the whips made that my office is close to the chamber, which gives me enough time to get there when there’s votes and the voting bell goes off. 

EMMA- And what about other colleagues, have you learned quite a lot about what other people need as well in this work that you’ve been doing around access? 

MARIE- Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of the other things that we picked up was when we vote, and your listeners may not realise this, but we have electronic cards that we can scan to be able to physically vote. But we have to still do that in the voting lobbies themselves. So, there are an aye and a no lobby that run either side of the chamber, on the outside of the chamber, and they’re quite long lobbies. You have to scan your card at one end of the lobby and then leave through the other end so the whips can literally count you out. And it may be in a particular voting session that you’re voting on a number of amendments, so each vote takes about 15 minutes because you have to go through the chamber with all your other colleagues, be counted, and then often go round again. So, there’s quite a lot of walking involved. And one of the things that some of my colleagues who experience arthritis, who have other, maybe autism and other types of neurodiversity, have found is that the space was very cramped, they also found that walking quite a lot. And there is a reasons room, and we’ve been asking for that to be called the reasonable adjustments room where there could be a special electronic screen for the aye lobby and for the no lobby actually in that room so that colleagues that find going round the lobbies and walking round the lobbies have the opportunity to scan their cards there and vote there. 

EMMA- And do you think that’s on the cards, Marie?

MARIE- It’s something that we raised at the modernisation committee and will continue to push for. But I think what that’s also highlighted is that there may be a variation of reasonable adjustments in respect of voting. And one of the things that I continue to push for in the Commons, a lot of members don’t know when they’re going to be called to speak so you may be waiting, as I was for my maiden speech, four hours to be able to speak. And you have to bob for the whole of that time, so you have to stand up and sit down at every interval after the last person has finished speaking. So, that’s a lot of core exercise and it’s pretty tiring. And in the Lords they have call lists and so it’s much easier to find out where you are in the list, so that you can go out of the chamber after you’ve heard the initial opening speeches and know when you can come back in and monitor that more easily. 

EMMA- Speaking of speeches, the government was forced to do a climbdown on the benefit reforms earlier this year. It was originally called the Personal Independence Payments and Universal Credit bill; it’s now just the Universal Credit bill. But when the initial bill came out you gave a very, very impassioned speech to the House of Commons: 

[Clip]

MARIE- My community has nurtured me growing up, and they taught me the values of fairness, equality, community. So, it is with a heavy, broken heart that I will be voting against this bill today. [Cries of hear hear]. As a matter of conscience I need my constituents to know I cannot support the proposed changes to PIP as currently drafted on the face of the bill before us today. 

[End of clip]

EMMA- Wow, so much emotion in your voice there. I’m sure it’s difficult to hear that in some ways. What was going through your head that day? 

MARIE- I mean, for me I wanted to draw on my professional expertise, which was to have a laser focus on what we needed to do to close the employment gap for disabled people. And PIP is crucial to enabling disabled people to get into work. I’d had long and very positive conversations with colleagues over a number of months behind the scenes that I felt that would better reflect our manifesto. So, yes it was emotional. I particularly talked about the experience that I’d had during the pandemic and my concerns there, and the sort of pledge that I’d made to myself that I would use my own professional skills and experiences to try and always advocate on behalf of making a country that values disabled people. And I felt that the bill still that wasn’t quite sufficient to reflect that pledge in a way that I’d made to myself at the start of the pandemic, and so that made it quite emotional for me. But I’ve just happily come from a really positive meeting with the minister Stephen Timms and agreed with different disability organisations, discussing again his promises at the dispatch box around what the government would do in terms of coproduction as part of the Timms Review. 

EMMA- Sounds like you’ve been quite pleased with how coproduction is going so far, because in The Guardian you did say that you hoped it wasn’t going to be a performative review, the Timms Review. It sounds like you’re very involved in it and keeping your eye on the ball to make sure it's what you want. Are you? 

MARIE- Yeah, I am. And I know how important it is for the disabled people because of how important PIP is to them and their ability to be included in our society, that that is a really positive and true coproduction process. And there has already been some very positive steps taken over the summer by the minister and his team. And today I know the input that was made will be taken further forward to update the Timms Review terms of reference that was published again to reflect that third reading statement that he made, but also the input that disabled people’s organisations have made since then. And so I really look forward to helping support where I can and be useful with that process going forward. 

EMMA- I’ll be geekily looking out for those terms of references and the changes there. I’ve become very invested in all of this and following all this so much. Some of the papers reported around the time of the benefit reform bill going through that you had some unhappy chats with the chancellor, Rachel Reeves. I mean, it sounds like you were having some very top level conversations about all of this. That must have been such a difficult time. There must have been a lot of hard conversations going on there. 

MARIE- So, as I was raising this issue at the very highest level, and I was really grateful to colleagues for listening really closely to my professional expertise and experience throughout that process, so I’m not going to share the content in private conversations, but we have arrived a situation which has moved things forward. I think the focus now really is how we close that employment gap and close the pay gap that we know so many disabled people have faced expanding over the last 14 years of the Conservative government. And that’s the space that we need to be in, and it is a really positive opportunity to move forward and to really change the frame in this area so that it is about for those people who can get into work that they can be supported to do so. And we look at more innovative ways to do that. 

EMMA- You really do sound like a woman who’s just back off her holidays. You sound really positive and ready to rock and roll, do you know what I mean? 

MARIE- I think that’s the way I always sound [laughs]. 

EMMA- Well, I mean it was a hard few months for everybody I think, and you were all starting to sound just weepy and weary at the end of it because it was tough. But now you sound like you’ve had a break. 

MARIE- I think the thing is that politicians are real people and sometimes that gets forgotten. And it is an enormous privilege to do this job, but a lot of us have come from very ordinary backgrounds and humble backgrounds, and it’s right there will be times where we show different emotions. But for me politics is about solving problems that are affecting people’s lives, and where there are real tangible ways to do that I will always seek them out and do what I can to help others to deliver them. 

EMMA- Tell me, what are the issues particularly that are foremost in your mind and that you’ll be working on over the autumn? 

MARIE- In terms of disability the big campaign that I’m working on is inclusive maternity care as a result of the experiences I had when I was pregnant with my little one seven years ago, and the barriers that I found in that process in terms of the knowledge and awareness for disabled mothers. We worked with Professor Hannah Cooper at the London School of Tropical Medicine earlier in the year on a report that she put out highlighting the gaps and issues that are facing that group. 

EMMA- We covered that on Access All actually, that report. 

MARIE- Absolutely. And we will continue to work really closely with disabled women. We’ve been heavily working closely with the Royal College of Midwives and the Royal College of Gynaecologists on what more can be done around training and where disabled women can have a strong voice in making more adequate maternity care, so that at every stage through that process disabled women have better treatment and care and a more nuanced understanding of where their own disability intersects with their maternity. 

EMMA- Oh gosh, you’re really speaking my language today, Marie Tidball, as a disabled mum of two young children. I’ll be very interested to hear how that goes as well. Thank you so much, MP Marie Tidball, for speaking to me on Access All. 

MARIE- Pleasure. 

EMMA- The government has returned from summer recess, and it’s got a packed agenda of disability and mental health related stuff to get through in the next few months. So, to give us a rundown of what that is and what’s likely to happen we’ve got Bethany Dawson from Politico here with us. Hi, Bethany. 

BETHANY- Hello. Thank you so much for having me. 

EMMA- Thanks for being here. There is an awful lot going on, isn’t there? Let’s start with special educational needs and disabilities. 

BETHANY- This is a massive topic, and when I speak to MPs my favourite question to ask is always what’s the top of your inbox, and they almost always say SEND provisions, constituents are very worried about it. In terms of what we’re going to see over the next few months the kicker, and you’re going to hear me say this quite a lot, is it’s going to be a wait, because a lot of the provisions for SEND reform are coming within the children and wellbeing bill. That’s currently at the committee stage at the House of Lords. 

EMMA- So, what can people expect? What are the changes that are in the bill? 

BETHANY- There’s meant to be some more money. There’s meant to be more focus. And there’s hope from the government that it will change the lacking provisions that children with special educational needs often face in schools. However, as we know with these things, there’s sometimes growing pains and there’s also changes in the way the legislation is interpreted by different local authorities. 

EMMA- It’s interesting because we’ve talked so much about the welfare reform bill over the last few months, but the difference between that and SEND reforms is that it is very local authority based and it’s very different depending on which council you’re under. So, this is going to be a very, very interesting time in that regard. 

Let’s talk about the Work Capability Assessment. That is, the government hopes, going to merge with the Personal Independence Payments assessments; both disability benefits, different kinds. Where are we with that at the moment? What’s going to happen, if anything, over the next few months? 

BETHANY- The changes to the Workplace Capability Assessments came last year, but again the kicker with the merger with PIP is that all the changes to PIP are kind of on pause until the Timms Review is finished. 

EMMA- You mentioned the Timms Review there, which is the review around Personal Independence Payments and the assessments which is due to be coproduced by disabled people. Bethany, when are we going to hear back from that review? 

BETHANY- Next year. So, in terms of those big changes it’s a kind of awkward time for the government because they can’t really say what’s going on because they’ve committed to doing a big review of it and how it works, and they will of course say that that is the kind of work that needs to be done to do it right. 

PAUL- So, on PIP you mentioned there the government climbdown that happened over the summer with regards to some of those reforms. Where are we with that now? And has some of the anger that existed around that has that abated a little bit? 

BETHANY- I think those backbench MPs that rebelled and that signed that amendment that essentially caused the downfall of those changes they’re feeling heard; they felt heard, they made a set of demands, and they were largely met. It’s given those MPs that feel incredibly passionately about a very important topic space to get angry and to make change. And that means if the government doesn’t get it right in their eyes they’re going to face a lot of pressure, they’re going to face a rebellion again. 

EMMA- What about the Mental Health Act, Bethany? The Tories talked a lot about this, they didn’t have enough time they said to bring that through. Are Labour dragging their feet on it as well now? 

BETHANY- Labour would certainly not say they’re dragging their feet. However, people that are waiting for changes in legislation and who want to see change, are going to probably more characterise this as the government kicking their feet; they’re not feeling heard. So, whilst the government will say that this is due process, they want to get it right, part of getting it right is ensuring that people feel heard and that legislation is made for them. So, there’s a little bit of a pressure point, as you say, ramping up on that, whilst all the other pressures rise as well. 

EMMA- So, will we see anything by the end of this session, by Christmas, for the next few months? 

BETHANY- I wish I had a crystal ball; I think all of our jobs would be easier if we had them. The main sort of feature piece between now and Christmas will be that budget. And as I said, I’d be surprised if there was anything big and new before all of those reviews come out. But we could see the children and wellbeing bill change, which as I said will introduce those SEND reforms, and we may hear some more on those all important reviews. So, I wouldn’t expect any huge set piece things, but stranger things have happened and I will not place any bets [laughter]. 

EMMA- And Bethany, on a lighter note, you spoke to Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats recently, and by your request you guys went kayaking. 

BETHANY- I did. I thought firstly, there’s no other politician which will entertain my requests like this. And I wanted to test what a lot of people said, which was he would be slightly disarmed if he was in a kayak. 

PAUL- What a sentence! [Laughter] 

BETHANY- Firstly I’m dyspraxic, and I got in the kayak and remembered that [laughter], and sort of thought I am going to be the one that tips us over and I can’t blame Ed Davey. But I can confirm we didn’t fall in. We spoke a lot about social care. He paddles very quickly when he talks about social care because as we know he’s very passionate about the topic. He described a conspiracy within successive governments and the Treasury for wanting to kick the massively important issue down the track. I’m sure the Treasury will reject all of those claims, but he wasn’t impressed. 

EMMA- Bethany Dawson from Politico, thank you for coming in. 

BETHANY- Thanks so much for having me. 

PAUL- Thanks Bethany. 

EMMA- Paul, we’re racking up the young entrepreneurial disabled people on Access All at the moment, and we have another one with us just now. We’ve got Jennifer Smyth, and Jennifer in her mid-20s has started her own gym. She’s a disabled person from Northern Ireland who found that there was nowhere for her to exercise, so she got on and did something about it. And she’s here to tell us more. Hi, Jenn. 

JENNIFER- Hi.   

EMMA- Tell me a bit about your gym. What’s it look like? What’s in it? 

JENNIFER- It’s called Jenn’s Gym. It’s the first gym of its kind in Northern Ireland, so it’s specially designed for people with neurological conditions and disabilities. We’ve got a range of specialised equipment so you can workout whether you’re sitting, whether you’re standing, whether you’ve got one limb that works, whether you’ve got four. So, it’s amazing all different pieces of kit. 

EMMA- What’s your favourite piece of equipment in there? 

JENNIFER- My favourite would be it’s called a NuStep, so it’s like a recumbent cross trainer, so it’s fully adaptable, the seat spins, the arms move and you only need one limb for it to work. I don’t have leg function so I can use my arms to workout my whole body. 

EMMA- Right, so you’re sitting back and your legs are going and your arms are going? 

JENNIFER- Uh-huh. 

EMMA- Very good. So, who can use your gym and how does that work? 

JENNIFER- So, anyone with a disability and anyone in Northern Ireland, because we’re the only gym [laughs]. So, we’re a pay as you go gym as well, so there’s no memberships involved; people just drop in any time we’re open, pay your £7 for 30 minutes and do your own workout.

EMMA- So, this gym has been a decade in the making, Jennifer. Tell me the history behind it. Why did you start the gym or why did you come up with that idea so long ago? 

JENNIFER- So, when I was 16 I was a competitive gymnast, but unfortunately I sustained a freak accident, I broke my neck and became paralysed from the chest down. Because I used to train over 20 hours a week in the gym and then I went from that to doing nothing I was like, I still need to exercise, I still want to keep fit, how do I do that. Searching for rehab centres, anywhere I could get exercise, but I couldn’t find anywhere in Northern Ireland or the UK. My local community then were fundraising for me just to help with the cost of living life as a disabled person. And we then found a place in America called NextStep Orlando, and they’re a recovery centre for people with spinal injuries. Seeing the gyms out there just blew my mind, the positivity, the adapted equipment. So, then I was like, that is what we need here in Northern Ireland. So, then that started my journey of inspiration to I need to make this gym. 

EMMA- What was the difference between your experience in the gym there and your rehabilitation experience at home? 

JENNIFER- So, I sort of feel over here doctors will tell you worst case scenario, and they almost don’t give you a lot of hope, which I found, I think they’re scared to give you hope in case you don’t recover as much as you would like. But over in America I found there’s just the positivity, they were going to get me on my feet no matter what, whether it was just in a harness, or I might not have been standing myself but I was still upright, I was still moving. And it just gives you that buzz, those endorphins of just being upright and moving again. It’s more the mental benefits as well rather than the physical. 

EMMA- Is that the kind of ethos in your gym now, positivity and pushing people forward? 

JENNIFER- Definitely. I tell people we’re not a hard core body building gym; it’s more it’s your social, it’s getting out of the house and moving again, meeting people in similar situations, or you’re not as isolated in your own home. Yes, we’re all about recovery, and we say maintaining what you’ve got is better than going backwards. 

EMMA- And what have people said having used your gym? Have you had quite a few people through the door and what’s their reaction been? 

JENNIFER- It’s all been really positive. A lot of people come in and we just hear their wow, because we’re bright blue colours, it’s not clinical. Everyone seems like they want to be there, they want to exercise, they want to meet other people. There was one guy who hadn’t moved his hand in ten years after a motorcycle accident, and we have robotic gloves that are able to open and close your hands. He put the glove on, seeing his hand move for the first time in ten years and just the stretch and his arm was more relaxed, and he said it was the most amazing feeling. 

EMMA- Oh, that’s great to have feedback like that. I know that it’s a charity, you used your own money to set it up, and it’s tough going keeping it going, funding etc, what are you hoping the future of your gym will be? 

JENNIFER- I really just want it to grow and be the go-to place. And I want to be able to get more physios and work with the hospitals and have trainers, just trying their best to help others, because everyone was so good to me at the beginning of my journey that I just want to help as many other people as possible. 

MUSIC-

EMMA- I hear you’re going on holiday soon, Paul. Will you be doing any therapies, exercise, gym while you’re there? 

PAUL- [Laughs] I’m almost embarrassed to say, I am going on holiday, it’s very bougie, I’m going on a cruise darling. 

EMMA- Woo. 

PAUL- And one of the things I’m doing, I guess you could call it therapy, I am going swimming with an animal. 

EMMA- With an animal? 

PAUL- Yeah. But it might not be the animal you’re expecting. 

EMMA- Uh, swimming with an animal. I mean, what do people usually go swimming with? Dolphins? 

PAUL- Yeah, but it’s not dolphins, and it’s not stingrays. I’m going swimming with pigs. 

EMMA- What? [Laughter] Do you know what, I was going to guess pigs for a joke. 

PAUL- Were you? 

EMMA- I genuinely was going to guess pigs. Okay, break this down for me. 

PAUL- So, there’s a little island in the Caribbean where these pigs live, wild pigs, and so you take a boat out and you get in the water and these pigs swim around. 

EMMA- What kind of pigs and what’s the benefit of swimming with them? Is it like therapeutic, like when they send disabled kids to swim with dolphins? 

PAUL- Oh, I don’t know. I mean, I’m not going on, like, a make a wish trip or anything. Yeah, I guess it’s therapeutic. What wouldn’t be therapeutic about swimming with little piggies?

EMMA- But where are they swimming? Are they water pigs?

PAUL- In the sea. 

EMMA- Is there such a thing? 

PAUL- Yeah. 

EMMA- Sea pigs?

PAUL- They live there, yeah. 

EMMA- But do they live in the sea? 

PAUL- Well, they live on the island. 

EMMA- And they just go in for a paddle. 

PAUL- They’re not like, they don’t have gills, they’re not like aquatic pigs. 

EMMA- Honestly, I wouldn’t know. There could be aquatic pigs for all I know. 

PAUL- [Laughs]

EMMA- But why do they go into the water then? 

PAUL- Because they like it. 

EMMA- All right, well listen, you’ll have to report back to me. 

PAUL- Oh, I absolutely will. I will send full notes. 

EMMA- Thank you very much. I think we will leave our listeners with that thought of Paul Carter swimming with pigs, and see you all later. Bye. 

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