蜜芽传媒

8th October 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 181

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, this is Access All, and later in this episode we鈥檒l be talking about why black people are four times more likely to be sectioned than the rest of the population. Here鈥檚 a clip.

[Clip]

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I came home one day, I was screaming, shouting, trying to break things. Luckily, one of my uncles was a doctor and said, 鈥淲e need to get him an ambulance, he鈥檚 having a manic episode.鈥� I think after two days into my sectioning I kind of came back to myself and I tried to leave, and I got injected, and then I woke up in this room with my mum looking through the flap telling me that it鈥檚 all going to be all right.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 More of that later on. I鈥檝e got Kirsteen with me again. Hi, Kirsteen.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Good to be back.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can I tell you a little story?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Go on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 A little happy story. Last week I was in London doing various things around the city, and I counted over a three and half to four day period I had 20 different assistants on the Transport for London network and National Rail. Every single arm I took to get me from one train to the next, up the stairs out of the station, down the stairs into the station, arrived exactly when they said they would, did exactly what I needed, and we had some great micro chats along the way, and two of them even said they were subscribed to the podcast.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 That鈥檚 amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Isn鈥檛 it so good to able to like say good news and say nice things, because we talk so much about how accessible travel can be so difficult.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 It must be something of a record. But I mean assisted travel when it works is fantastic, it鈥檚 just that nagging little feeling all the time that something鈥檚 going to go wrong, and when it goes wrong, it often goes really wrong.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 the wrongest it鈥檚 gone for you?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 It was worse actually before I used a wheelchair. I would go up to Glasgow a lot. The reason I used it is because the platforms at Euston are soooo long.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So you have MS, you鈥檝e some mobility issues.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e a wheelchair user now, but before that you were ambulatory.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Yeah. And then coming back late on a Sunday night from Glasgow and getting into Euston and waiting half an hour for assistance to arrive that doesn鈥檛. Then just that awful thought of trying to hobble, I don鈥檛 know, is it 500 metres or more, and I鈥檓 on my knees by the time I get there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think these sorts of news stories get so much traction, like Tanni Grey-Thompson crawling on and off trains, Frank Gardner, Security Correspondent, left on an airplane for X amount of time. Because people can鈥檛 actually believe it, like they kind of suddenly maybe have put themselves in your shoes and go, 鈥淥h my god, that鈥檚 really, really rubbish.鈥� And Frank Gardner, do you know what I mean, how has he been left on a plane?!

But we are so used to it that I feel like we take an awful lot of it on the chin, don鈥檛 we? And I think that鈥檚 why in one way it鈥檚 good to tell a good story, but in another way it鈥檚 good that we cover it so much on Access All, because we suck up so much of it and let so much of it drop because it鈥檚 too hard to be complaining all the time.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Well, absolutely. And this used to happen to me before social media was a thing, but I don鈥檛 think even if Twitter was available then, or X as it鈥檚 called now, I would have thought of putting that on social media because it was just such an everyday thing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah! [Laughs] It鈥檚 just like I washed my teeth and I was left on a train!

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Yeah. I didn鈥檛 know that that was a news story.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can I tell you a really quick story before we finish?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Go on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I got the sleeper to Scotland recently, and often when you wake up the train has already stopped, it comes in really early, and then the breakfast guy came with the tea and stuff and I had it, and then I was like rushing and waiting on the edge of my bed, waiting for the assistance to arrive and was like, 鈥淥h my goodness, what鈥檚 happening? Why is assistance not arriving?鈥� And then there was a big announcement, but the speaker wasn鈥檛 working in my little room so I went out to check, I was like, 鈥淢y assistance isn鈥檛 here yet, why is it not here yet?鈥� and they were like, 鈥淏ecause we鈥檙e not in yet, we鈥檙e stuck at Carstairs!鈥� [Laughter] We鈥檙e half an hour out of Edinburgh and here was me freaking out, all packed and all like made up and all ready to go. It was a good hour and a half from when I asked that question to when I actually got into Edinburgh, and I just felt so stupid, and I just thought, 鈥榃hy could the person bringing me the tea not have just sort of mentioned it?!鈥�

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 The overall lesson is, it鈥檚 not just access that screws up sometimes, sometimes it鈥檚 a disabled person.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah! [Laughter]

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 We haven鈥檛 always got the moral high ground.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme tune.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, I am Emma Tracey and this is Access All. I鈥檝e got the lovely Kirsteen Knight with me for the episode today. Please do subscribe to us on 蜜芽传媒 Sounds, and you can get in touch with us, we鈥檙e on email accessall@bbc.co.uk

Now, this is the bit where we talk about the stories, the disability related stuff that鈥檚 been happening in the last week, and one of the big, big, big stories is Ellie Goldstein on Strictly Come Dancing. She is an actress and a model with Down syndrome, she鈥檚 been partnered with Vito Coppola, she鈥檚 doing great. Kirsteen, have you been watching?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 I always watch Strictly when there鈥檚 a disabled dancer on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, me too. I鈥檓 particularly invested when there is a disabled dancer on. Now we sort of wanted to get a bit of insight into what might be going on in Ellie and Vito鈥檚 training room, so we brought in Jo Banham. Jo Banham has been on Dancing with the Stars in the Netherlands, she鈥檚 been on Britain鈥檚 Got Talent with a dance partner with Down syndrome, Nathan. She鈥檚 had a viral video with Nathan that鈥檚 had over 30 million views, and she teaches people with learning disabilities to dance. So you are, Jo Banham, in a unique position to talk about this, aren鈥檛 you?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. A very, very wonderful position having worked with so many lovely adults with learning disabilities.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So how from this unique position do you feel Ellie鈥檚 getting on?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think she鈥檚 doing fabulously. I think the first live show people underestimate whether you have a disability or not. It鈥檚 always a very intense moment, and there鈥檚 lots of emotions and lots of things, and I think to see her having smashed it two weeks running, she鈥檚 done such a good job, and her and Vito just have incredible chemistry, which is lovely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 They do. They really do have incredible chemistry. And Kirsteen, you used to be a dancer, didn鈥檛 you?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Yeah. I was in my last year at dance school training when I got MS.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So what鈥檚 your burning question to Jo about Ellie鈥檚 performance so far?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 Well, I mean obviously the personality is the big thing, and that shines through in every move she does. After I became disabled, I got a lot of work as a disabled dancer, and that often involved not just performances but teaching and doing workshops. I work quite a lot with people with learning difficulties, and obviously what can be an issue is just learning the sequences and the steps. What really surprised me with Ellie, was just how complex her footwork was and just how much she was able to remember. Did that strike you, or do you think there鈥檚 some sort of technique that they may be using to help?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think Ellie had done some dancing prior to obviously entering Strictly Come Dancing. I don鈥檛 think it was ballroom and Latin, but that all helps, when you鈥檝e had a foundation in dance, I think that really helps with things. But I think what really works with them is Vito and the way he鈥檚 training her, he鈥檚 really built that level of trust with her. She鈥檚 obviously very quick and on the ball at picking up things, and I think he really picks moves and routines that really complement her. Like when she did the cha-cha, you talk about her personality, but all those moves she just shined through in everything. So he picked some really clever bits of choreo to really show off how clever she was and how creative she was, and how much her personality could just sparkle all across the dancefloor.

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I thought that particularly showed in the cha-cha-cha, because what she鈥檚 got really good is isolation.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 isolation?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 She鈥檚 got great rib isolation, so she can move then without the rest of her body doing, and her hip moves are fantastic, I mean that whole piece played to her personality.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And Jo, earlier I spoke to you in the dance studio with your class of adults with learning disabilities.

[Clip]

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, how are you? It鈥檚 all happening.

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 very well. We鈥檙e literally waltzing right now, aren鈥檛 we, Sam, with the team.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You can see all the team, do you want to give a wave to Emma? [Team wave and 鈥渉i鈥漖

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi.

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e doing a fabulous dance workshop, and we鈥檙e doing the waltz, just like Ellie did on Saturday night.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Have you ever done the waltz before, Sam?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Never.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What would you say, Jo, is the first thing you鈥檒l need to teach Sam and the others for the waltz?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We were just learning the box step, which is forwards, side, close, which is the one, two, three that Shirley鈥檚 always talking about.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, brilliant. Sounds like a really good basis and a really good start. Sam, tell me about yourself, who are you?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So I鈥檓 Sam. I鈥檓 part of the team. [Cheers from the team]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you a dancer, Sam?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, always.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what do you like about dancing?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I like the swift of it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 The swift of it?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Does that mean how fast it is?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what鈥檚 your favourite dance to do?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 got to be the waltz.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 got to be the waltz. But you鈥檙e just starting that one. What one have you done before?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We did the jive.

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You liked the jive, didn鈥檛 you?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That one鈥檚 fast paced.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 God, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 How do you feel when you鈥檙e dancing?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I feel so relaxed in a way.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a way of letting off steam?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And Sam, have you been watching Ellie Goldstein on Strictly?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, loved her. Loved her.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Loved her. What did you like about her on Strictly?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The costumes are brilliant on her.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 How about how she moves?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So elegant, so swift.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is there anything else you want to tell me, Sam?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 actually independent living, just moved in.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And how鈥檚 that going?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 going all right. Moved in yesterday.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you living on your own, or are you living with some people?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 With some people.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you have to cook for yourself now as well?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 for dinner tonight then?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Not a clue.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Not a clue. [Laughter in background] Well, you鈥檙e going to need a nice big feast after all this waltzing. Thank you so much to Jo, and thank you, Sam, as well for bringing us into your dance class, I feel so privileged.

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks, Emma. I think the team would love to say 鈥渒eep dancing.鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is everybody ready? [Agreement] One, two, three.

ALL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Keep dancing!

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is there any moves that maybe Ellie and Vito would be less likely to try, or any dances that would be particularly difficult do you think, Jo, from your knowledge of Strictly?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think the samba is the curse of Strictly, but I think Ellie will smash that one based on the cha-cha and talking about isolating those hips. But I think the more challenging elements will come potentially with lifts, as the weeks go on we like to see the celebs do more and more challenging lifts. And she鈥檚 done a few drops and bits with Vito, but obviously lifting can be quite dangerous and potentially risky, and I don鈥檛 know if she鈥檒l have the confidence to want to take... I actually take that back, I think she鈥檚 more than got the confidence, but I鈥檓 not sure if that鈥檚 necessarily where her forte will lie in being lifted.

One thing that would be really great to see Ellie improve on, she picks her feet up quite a lot, which different styles of dance use that action, but in ballroom and Latin we use a lot more connection with the floor. So that would be really awesome to see her work on that over the coming weeks.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But that鈥檚 interesting, because the judges have been asking her to do that, haven鈥檛 they? And I鈥檝e been so interested listening to the judges and how they鈥檙e giving their feedback. So you鈥檝e met one person with a learning disability, let鈥檚 absolutely say that, but from your experience of teaching people with learning disabilities to dance, what advice would you give to Vito and the judges in terms of feedback?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think how you deliver that information is crucial. It鈥檚 not that you can鈥檛 deliver criticism, but I think picking your time and picking your tone is invaluable. And I think that鈥檚 true of anybody whether they have a learning disability or not, I think you can really enhance and really build the confidence of a dancer through learning and through criticism, but it鈥檚 that choice of how. Those judges鈥� comments straight after she鈥檇 danced, that鈥檚 quite a tense moment I think, because you鈥檝e got all these emotions running through your body, you鈥檙e absolutely flooded with feeling fabulous about what you鈥檝e just done, and it can then be a bit flat if afterwards the judges have got some sort of more feedback and constructive criticism for you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 In terms of your teaching and the workshops you do and everything, what kind of adjustments and differences would you say need to be in place for some people with learning disabilities when they鈥檙e learning to dance?

JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Whether you have a learning disability or not, top tip, make sure you eat. Your blood sugar will affect anything more than any learning disability potentially. But really it鈥檚 about getting to know the individual, each individual has their own triggers whether they鈥檙e able to communicate that or not. And I think that鈥檚 the difference, somebody who may have more awareness of their feelings may be able to tell you they鈥檙e feeling overwhelmed. Whereas working with someone with Down syndrome, it maybe is more your responsibility to sort of spot those signs and signals. And they do give them off. So I think Vito鈥檚 amazing relationship with Ellie will really help build that, because he鈥檒l spot that and then be able to step in and work out when she needs more time, when she might need a break.

I don鈥檛 necessarily think you can group anybody with a disability in one box. I know when I鈥檝e taught, I鈥檝e found a lot of visual learning helps, so I鈥檝e done red sock, blue sock, so rather than left foot and right foot, we鈥檝e put a different coloured sock on each foot. But I also find that works really awesomely again even with those without disabilities, lots of people struggle with left and right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think I could talk about this all day, this is my issue, Jo Banham, but we are going to have to let you go. And thank you so much for giving us a wee bit of an insight into what might be happening in Ellie Goldstein and Vito鈥檚 training room.

听JO-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you very much, Emma, and lovely to see you Kirsteen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, Kirsteen, that鈥檚 enough Strictly talk for now. I know you鈥檇 like more.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 I know! I had so many more questions.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But listen, there is another subject close to your heart that I do want to talk about, and that is wheelchairs, because you have a snazzy wheelchair with a powered attachment.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 I do. It goes really fast. But it wasn鈥檛 always the case. I used to struggle along in a top of the range Argos one, which was totally different to this.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, so you never actually went through and had an NHS assessment and Wheelchair Services and all that?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 I did eventually, because after a while everyone was saying, 鈥淭his wheelchair鈥檚 so rubbish.鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And was it pride, or what? You鈥檝e been disability sort of activist-y for a very long time, what was it that was making you try and get around in an Argos 鈥� no offence to Argos, other markets are available etc 鈥� but why struggle along with a high street wheelchair?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 I have no issue in saying I鈥檓 disabled and using every service that鈥檚 going. I suppose I was just a bit of a part-time wheelchair user. But as I needed it more, what became a real issue is I鈥檓 pretty small and your standard wheelchair from Argos or anywhere else is quite big, so nothing really worked properly.

And then I became aware that there was this thing called the Wheelchair Service, and I was absolutely amazed that I went along and they said, 鈥淲e鈥檒l get a chair specially made for you, and you can have Z amount of money,鈥� which was ten times more than my Argos one cost. But I am very lucky because I use a manual chair and it was simple and didn鈥檛 need adaptations, and around that time I became aware that the people that need much more sophisticated chairs but can鈥檛 get them.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, this is why we鈥檙e talking about this, because a couple of weeks鈥� ago there was a story on the 蜜芽传媒 that Whizz Kidz, which is a charity that helps people under 25 years old to access wheelchairs, have had to close their waiting list because they had 1,000 names on it, and they said that escalating costs and squeezed NHS budgets were the reason why the list has gone so long, there鈥檚 such huge demand and long delays.

And actually loads and loads of you got in touch with the 蜜芽传媒 with your stories, adults and children. We had Anthony from Reading who he says became wheelchair dependent in 2014, and he got the voucher that you got from Wheelchair Services and he said it was 拢1,100 in 2014, and he鈥檚 just gone to look for another wheelchair 鈥� because they don鈥檛 last forever, right 鈥� and the voucher is still the same amount, even though he says that wheelchair costs have spiralled. So he said the voucher that you get from the NHS to get yourself a wheelchair doesn鈥檛 cover the wheelchair anymore, in his opinion.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And then we had Harbinder from London who actually sent us a voice note.

HARBINDER-听听 My son has been waiting 18 months for a suitable NHS wheelchair. He鈥檚 been severely affected by long COVID and is now unfortunately disabled. He鈥檚 been forced to use his grandmother鈥檚 wheelchair but it鈥檚 just not right for him. We tried Whizz Kidz, but sadly its closed its waiting list. There are thousands of children with long COVID who now need wheelchairs. Many don鈥檛 meet the narrow NHS criteria, others can鈥檛 get support from the NHS, and those like ourselves who have NHS support and meet the criteria, still have to wait for years. It鈥檚 heartbreaking and utterly awful.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 A heartfelt message there from Harbinder about her newly disabled son. I mean there鈥檚 a lot you鈥檙e going through anyway without... there鈥檚 a road they鈥檙e going down, there鈥檚 a journey they鈥檙e on, and having struggles with getting a wheelchair to get around is just one part of that, isn鈥檛 it?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 It鈥檚 great though that he can use his grandmother鈥檚 wheelchair, but it really shouldn鈥檛 be like that. Imagine in the government, NHS, or other authorities, were going round chopping off non-disabled people鈥檚 legs, because that鈥檚 essentially what you鈥檙e doing to a disabled person when you say that you can鈥檛 have the wheelchair you need.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Strong words there, Kirsteen Knight. We actually got an email to our inbox from Ade in Wales who鈥檚 25, and his family have funded and raised money for every chair he鈥檚 ever had. He needs a 14 grand wheelchair, that鈥檚 what they鈥檙e raising money for just now. One of his issues is 鈥� and I鈥檝e looked this up and it is true 鈥� he can鈥檛 get a powered wheelchair from the NHS, which is what he needs, because he can鈥檛 drive it himself all of the time. So he can drive it some of the time, but not all of the time, because he has a cerebral palsy where sometimes his muscles are really, really tight, sometimes they鈥檙e totally floppy. Usually someone has one or the other. And he鈥檚 got dystonia as well which means shaking, so he needs arms guards, he鈥檚 got scoliosis, he needs specialist back support, he needs a special head support so he can drive.

But not driving he says has had a massive, massive effect on his mental health. Like that bit of driving himself gives him a little bit of independence, a little bit of feeling that he has more agency, and he says that with the new very, very expensive wheelchair he鈥檒l be able to drive himself 60% or 70% of the time. So it鈥檚 just every family is going through a different thing, isn鈥檛 it?

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 And the issue with electric chairs is a big one. Again when I was getting my manual chair, I was close to needing an electric chair, at least outside. But you can鈥檛 get an electric chair unless you need it indoors as well. Or at least in my area, I think every area is different. So there are so many people out there that are not getting the chair they need.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 NHS England and NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee say that they鈥檙e working to deliver better services. NHS Scotland say they鈥檙e working to protect services. And the Department of Health in Northern Ireland said that by the end of August they had managed to sort people out 87% of the time with a wheelchair within 13 weeks.

Keep your stories coming in. Do you want to talk about dancing? Do you want to talk about wheelchairs? Do you want to talk about travel assistance? Or anything else? Email accessall@bbc.co.uk Or you can send us a WhatsApp, put the word 鈥渁ccess鈥� at the start, sometimes it鈥檚 easier just to talk into your phone, and you can send it to 0330 1239480. We鈥檙e on Instagram and X as well @蜜芽传媒AccessAll 听听听听听

Kirsteen, it鈥檚 been a blast, thank you so much for being with me this week.

KIRSTEEN-听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been great. Thanks for asking me again.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Jingle.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 The number of black people sectioned under the Mental Health Act is now four times the number of white people, according to mental health charity Mind, and that鈥檚 a figure that has gone up in the past year. The Act as we know it was passed into law 42 years ago and times have moved on. An independent review of it in 2018 recommended changes, and we鈥檙e now waiting on a new version of the bill to become law. Ahead of World Mental Health Day, we鈥檙e looking specifically at mental health and racial inequality. With us is Kadra Abdinasir, the Associate Director of Policy at the Centre for Mental Health, which challenges policies and systems. And we have musician, Shocka Erhahon, who has been sectioned four times. You鈥檙e very welcome to Access All, both.

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks for having us, Emma.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Thanks for having us.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Kadra, tell me about the Mental Health Act. It鈥檚 there to protect people, keep them safe, it鈥檚 there to help them get better. But black people are four times more likely than white people to be sectioned. Why is that, and why is it rising?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 The Mental Health Act is basically the legal framework that is used when severely mentally unwell people are needing to be detained so that they can receive care and treatment. But what we鈥檝e seen over time is these huge racial disparities, as you pointed out. They have been long documented in various government policies and reviews, but in the last year we鈥檝e seen some of the small progress we were making in narrowing down those differences start to creep up again.

There鈥檚 lots of factors really that feed into this. We know that many black people who live with mental health problems, they鈥檙e less likely to access early interventions, so their problems really escalate to the point of needing to be detained.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why do they not access those?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 The biggest challenge really is those huge gaps in provision in communities across the country, they simply don鈥檛 exist. So we鈥檙e talking about things like talking therapies which just aren鈥檛 available, so people are having to bottle up their problems.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And will this new bill change things?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. There鈥檚 some promising things in the bill that the government has committed to. For example, for those who are living with serious mental illness, there鈥檚 advanced decision making that they want to introduce, so that when they are detained in the future their wishes and feelings can kind of feed into their plans for their care. There鈥檚 some stronger measures around accessing advocacy services, so you have somebody who鈥檚 independent that can support you in navigating the mental health system. Those are all really positive shifts, but there鈥檚 still some things that we would like to see happen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What would you like to see included in it that鈥檚 not?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 The bill as it stands, some of the positive changes they鈥檙e making is introducing new principles that really highlight the importance of there being a therapeutic benefit in somebody鈥檚 detention. We want race equity to be one of those principles.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So is this the framework?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, PCREF. So that鈥檚 the Patient Carer Race Equality Framework. This is basically NHS England鈥檚 first anti-racism strategy. It will require all mental health trusts and providers to co-create with their communities and to raise this strategy to really bring down some of those disparities that you touched on earlier.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But it鈥檚 not in law?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 not in law. So that鈥檚 why we want to see that protected through the Mental Health Act, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Shocka, tell me just a bit about yourself and your experience with mental health?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檝e got a long-!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 listening.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I鈥檝e got a long battle with mental health. As you mention, I got sectioned four times, and I got diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you鈥檙e a musician?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Yes, I鈥檓 a musician. I started in a group, I was in a group called Marvell. Not Marvell like the superheroes, but we was kind of like superheroes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You felt like superheroes.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 We felt like superheroes. We was a group from north London, we did incredible things, we toured with Skepta, we toured with Diversity, the group that won Britain鈥檚 Got Talent.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Where my mental health journey started is when we lost our record deal, and that鈥檚 when I spiralled into depression and I end up getting sectioned for the first time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why do you think that had such a profound effect on you?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 What it does to your identity, because it鈥檚 like your whole identity is derived from the thing that you鈥檙e doing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So what did it do to your identity?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 It totally crashed it, it shattered it, because I realised I didn鈥檛 know myself outside of music. I had to rebuild myself from scratch, like who am I now, there鈥檚 no music now. And also what people don鈥檛 realise as well is how cold the industry can be.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Right, so they will just drop you and that鈥檚 it, you鈥檙e gone.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 And we had no idea about that, we was young kids, we was like 18/19.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And was there any mental health support there for you before?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 No, there wasn鈥檛 support like how it is now. And that鈥檚 why I wanted to touch on the stats of black males being sectioned, because I鈥檓 a black male myself and I鈥檝e been sectioned a few times, so I can take you into the psyche of what we need to take into consideration of a young black male is how much they鈥檙e dealing with. I was doing a live interview with someone and he said something to me that struck me, he said, 鈥淚 can鈥檛 imagine what it feels like to be born and be immediately pre-judged just because of your skin colour,鈥� it鈥檚 like as a young black male you feel unwelcomed.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me about the first time you got sectioned.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Oh my god, the first time I got sectioned was in a hospital called St Ann鈥檚, which is in Tottenham. I was there for five days. Those five days felt like an eternity. It was such a shellshock for me because I knew those places existed, but I never knew that I would end up in a place like that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What was happening when you were taken in?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Oh, I had a big breakdown. I came home one day, I was screaming, shouting, trying to break things. Luckily one of my uncles was a doctor and said, 鈥淲e need to get him an ambulance, he鈥檚 having a manic episode.鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And how were you treated?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 The only problem I had was I had a little altercation with the nurses. I think after two days into my sectioning I kind of came back to myself and I tried to leave, and I got injected, and then I woke up in this room with my mum looking through the flap telling me that it鈥檚 all going to be all right. And that was extremely traumatic.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know you got sectioned a few times, and same time of year each time, right?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Every two years, every December. So when December would come around it鈥檚 like my body goes into like a subconscious shock. I remember my friends used to have this joke in a group chat, every time December comes they鈥檒l be like, 鈥淲here鈥檚 Shocka? Make sure he鈥檚 safe so his mum doesn鈥檛 call us.鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do your friends support you?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Yes, definitely. I had a great support system. But they supported me in their own way with jokes and not making me feel different, not making me feel unhuman. I think one of the main things that happens when you get sectioned as a patient is that you feel less than human.

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What kind of supports have you had mental health wise?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 I didn鈥檛 go through therapy, and I think it was a culture thing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, tell me. Because I mean it sounds like you had PTSD, you were struggling with the trauma of the first time you were sectioned, the record deal, your mum got really sick. It sounds like you were a prime candidate for therapy.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Yes, everyone can鈥檛 believe I haven鈥檛 been therapy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You still haven鈥檛 been?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 I still haven鈥檛 been. They was like, 鈥淗ow have you been sectioned four times and you haven鈥檛 been therapy?鈥� But luckily now I鈥檝e learnt more, there鈥檚 different forms of therapy.

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Some people use adrenalin. Some people have a relationship with god. I use my artform. If you listen to my music it鈥檚 extremely personal. Sometimes I forget that it鈥檚 actually music, that I鈥檝e got to make it catchy, because I鈥檓 just venting in the music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Right. So how does it help you?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 It helps me stay true so that I need to get out of my system without having to say it like in a situation like this. I鈥檒l just turn the lights down, no-one would be in the studio, it鈥檚 just me and the engineer. And I can鈥檛 even believe that he鈥檚 hearing what I鈥檓 saying, so sometimes when I come out we look at each other. But he鈥檚 cool. But therapy is not our first way, there鈥檚 still a lot of shame around that.

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 As Shocka was touching on there, the power of creative arts. When I mentioned early interventions earlier, that鈥檚 the type of support we want to see expanded in communities, so finding ways of integrating creativity into the therapeutic journey and process. We also know for many black communities faith is really important to them, so going to like faith groups and organisations. That鈥檚 why it鈥檚 really important to upskill faith leaders around mental health so they can talk to their congregations. It鈥檚 been historically disproportionately black men, but we鈥檙e actually starting to see so many more black women being detained.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why is that?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know what, again there鈥檚 stereotypes placed on both genders, for black men to be strong, and for black women to be strong in different ways. So being seen as much more resilient and not having vulnerabilities.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Kadra, we鈥檝e spoken about PCREF a little bit, it feels like a really important part of narrowing those gaps.

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. The Patient Carer Race Equality Framework, it鈥檚 all about embedding anti-racist practices within the mental health system, not just within mental health hospitals but more broadly in community. Just to give you an example of some of the work I鈥檝e been involved in that鈥檚 a product of PCREF in Lambeth. They have been working with mental health support teams in schools across the borough to upskill them around cultural competency training. They recognise that young people from black and brown backgrounds weren鈥檛 accessing mental health support in schools at the levels they would have hoped, so the programme was able to upskill those workers to better engage that group in services.

We want the Mental Health Act to really enforce this programme as a statutory requirement so that all mental health services are fulfilling it as a duty and as part of their equalities鈥� requirements.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 guidelines for delivering services?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 guidelines, but it鈥檚 all about being co-produced with communities. So that鈥檚 a key part of it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So what Shocka was talking about in terms of people not going for therapy first, maybe going to their church because that suits them better, PCREF is kind of about upskilling the mental health workers who support them to know that that鈥檚 an option, and to speak to them about what would be the best way of getting their feelings out there and helping their head.

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, exactly that. We鈥檝e got so many assets within diverse communities that we really need to harness, so faith groups, community led organisations. It doesn鈥檛 just have to be that medical NHS approach really. So it鈥檚 about giving people flexibility and choice in the type of support they serve. This is also important for white people, disabled people, lots of different groups, all of us should have the right to choose the most appropriate form of support really.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. And you鈥檙e worried that this PCREF might be set aside?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 I mean the sector as a whole is a bit concerned because it鈥檚 a bit unclear if it will remain a priority of government or not.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We asked the Department for Health and Social Care if they recognised the racial inequities that we鈥檝e been speaking about, and they said:

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听 We recognise there are significant and concerning racial disparities in the rates of detention under the Mental Health Act, particularly for black people. That is why we are modernising the Mental Health Act, to ensure people with the most severe mental health conditions get better and more personalised treatment regardless of their ethnic background.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We also asked them whether PCREF will become law?

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 going to be a key part of making these reforms work and will remain a legal obligation for all providers of NHS commissioned mental health services, but it will not be a statutory requirement of the current bill.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Kadra?

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e had lots of conversations with government, and like I acknowledged earlier, there鈥檚 so much to welcome in the bill. But what we鈥檙e really concerned about is that we started with this whole reform journey on the basis of unacceptable inequalities for black and disabled people, and we now have a bill that doesn鈥檛 actually even mention race equity. So from our point-of-view it鈥檚 not really good enough, we really need the law to be like super-clear on these issues.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Shocka, what鈥檚 next for you? Are you doing music at the moment?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Yes, I am. I鈥檝e got so much music sitting there waiting to go.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Music clip from Shocka.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 also working on my second book.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah? What鈥檚 the first book?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 The first book was called A Section of My Life.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 I wrote it while I was sectioned.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 your Instagram and your book then.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah. [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, excellent. And what鈥檚 the second book?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 The second book is called Obedient to the Core. It鈥檚 more a faith book.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. Is it about mental health at all?

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Not really. That was the end of that chapter.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What, your whole life鈥檚 not about mental health now?!

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 No. [Laughter] That鈥檚 why it鈥檚 called A Section of My Life, it鈥檚 only a section!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you trying to tell me that you were a full and rounded person, Shocka?! [Laughter] Thank you, Shocka. Thank you, Kadra. And as I say, we will definitely be following this topic throughout the bill becoming law, and beyond as well. So thank you for joining us on Access All.

SHOCKA-听听听听听听听听 Thank you for having us.

KADRA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Jingle.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is it for this episode of Access All. If you鈥檝e enjoyed what you鈥檝e heard and you鈥檝e not subscribed already, please hit that big button on 蜜芽传媒 Sounds and then you will have Access All down on your device every single week at least once, and sometimes we throw in a little special just to keep you on your toes. You can email us, accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can send us a WhatsApp voice message or a text message on 0330 1239480. Why not follow us on social media, we put up some lovely videos, and that is Instagram and X @蜜芽传媒AccessAll. Thanks for listening, see you next time. Bye.