ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½

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15th October 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 182

Presented by Emma Tracey

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PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, it’s Paul here. I’ve turned up and there’s no Emma. Apparently she’ll be along later with a guest, Chris McCausland, who’s got a book out ready for Christmas. Here’s a clip:

[Clip]

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve always been very kind of closed off and personal about the actual experience of losing your sight in an emotional sense, or letting people see the vulnerability, or some of the shame or that side of it because you want to present a capable front to people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think Strictly on a very basic level it poked me with a stick until I cried on the telly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it made me realise the value in people seeing that vulnerability, that struggle to achieve something.

[End of clip]

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Before Chris we will, once again, be looking at the latest on the Access to Work scheme. Now, we’re aware that detail is being released about it as we record, specifically about how much has been spent on the scheme this year, so it’s literally hot off the press stuff. Thankfully disability correspondent Nikki Fox will be across all of this for us later on.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is Access All from the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ with me, Paul Carter. Emma will be along later with Chris McCausland, as I said. One of the things he’ll be talking about is how he was diagnosed with ADHD ten years ago. Thanks for tuning in. Please subscribe to us on ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can always tune in by saying to your smart speaker, ask ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ Sounds for Access All, and it’ll take you to our latest edition.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Work is such a hot topic right now, whether you’re in it, trying to get a job or unable to work. The Department of Work and Pensions has released its figures on Access to Work, a grant which supports you to do your job by paying for things like assistance, BSL interpreting, and computer software and equipment. And it’s been approved to 10% fewer people last year, although the amount spent on it has risen. ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ disability correspondent Nikki Fox is fresh from talking to the data wizards at the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ and has broken down the numbers a bit further for us. Hey, Nikki.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, what wizards? Hello.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lovely to talk to you as always.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re right, new data is telling us that Access to Work provision was approved for fewer people. The figure dropped by 10% since last year. And when I say Access to Work provision I’m talking about people who could be applying for the first time or renewing their applications. But the total number of people receiving Access to Work payments has risen to 74,190, up from 67,000 last year. So, therefore the total spend, as you said, on Access to Work has increased, rising from 273.2 million to 320.7 million. It’s a lot of numbers. Today’s figures don’t show the waiting times. A lot of people have asked me about the waiting times. But separate Department for Work and Pensions figures show that in February 2025 about 62,000 applications were waiting to be processed, with 33,000 people awaiting payment – that’s according to the DWP. And this all fits with what we’ve been hearing, Paul: long delays impacting people who are applying for grants, and significant reductions for some who are reapplying for support.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve been following the Access to Work story for quite a while. Why has it become such a hot topic for disabled people and ministers?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, well this year the big disability news story has been welfare, hasn’t it? It’s been the extra cost benefit, Personal Independence Payment, it’s been the out of work benefit, ESA. And at the same time all of this has been going on. Disabled people have been telling us, and I know that they’ve been telling you, that they’ve been losing their grants from Access to Work at reassessment, or they’re not getting their reward in time because of the long delays. And the general feeling is from disabled people that if the government wants to get more people in to work this scheme, which most disabled people say works, needs to actually work.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To give you an idea of the numbers of people who have had some kind of issues with the scheme, and I know you’re speaking to her, Dr Shani Dhanda, she set up the Access to Work Collective, and that’s the campaign group that she set up in response to the problems that people have been having when they’ve been applying or reapplying for grants, and since July she’s got almost 5,000 supporters. And I know that today they’re delivering the petition to Downing Street. And when we filmed our piece for ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ News we were not short of people to film with.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We know there are long delays with Access to Work applications, I mean you mentioned it there, over 60,000 outstanding applications. Earlier this year Access All presenter, Emma Tracey, sat down with the disability minister, Sir Stephen Timms, to ask him how they were going to improve that:

[Clip]

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The problem we’ve had with Access to Work is a huge increase in the number of people wanting it and knowing about it. We used to talk about Access to Work as the best kept secret.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was the best kept secret, yes.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. But it isn’t a secret anymore. Lots of people have found out about it, quite rightly, and are coming forward to apply. But because it’s a very personalised assessment involved in Access to Work we’ve just really struggled to keep up with demand.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But isn’t personalised really, really important?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What I’m hoping we can do is come up with an assessment which is perhaps a bit more rough and ready, a bit less personalised, but can be done more quickly so that we can get the help to people more quickly and avoid these terribly long waits that we’re suffering at the moment.

[End of clip]

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nikki, that was recorded on the 1st August, has there been any movement forward in terms of what changes might come into play?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The government have insisted in every statement that I’ve asked that it inherited a scheme that is failing both employees and employers. It’s saying that now it’s going to be working with disabled people and organisations to improve the scheme. We still need more info, Paul Carter.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] thanks Nikki Fox for breaking those figures down for us. Always lovely to talk to you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Even though the number spent on Access to Work has increased not everyone is happy. The campaign group Access to Work Collective has just handed in a petition signed by 2,000 people to 10 Downing Street, and have sent a letter to the Prime Minister asking for change. Dr Shani Dhanda is one of the cofounders of the Collective. Hi, Shani.

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What is the Access to Work Collective?

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we setÌý up back in May 2025, and we’re a disabled led group working to protect and to ask for meaningful reform of the government’s Access to Work scheme. And we were formed in response to all of the growing delays, the unofficial cuts and the barriers within the scheme. And we’ve got over 5,000 members and they’re made up of disabled workers, jobseekers, employers, suppliers, researchers, unions and advocates that we’re all coming together to push for transparency, fairness and accountability.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what have people been telling you about their experiences of Access to Work? What kinds of stories have you been hearing?

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We have heard a mixture of both the negative and the positive, because what we mustn’t lose sight of is Access to Work is fantastic when it works well and it has definitely been a lifeline for so many people. But since early 2024 disabled people have widespread reported that case managers have been making cuts that don’t make sense, that don’t add up to any guidance and really inconsistent decisions that are appearing to prioritise savings over support. And I’m going to be totally honest, this started just by many people just comparing notes. That’s how the collective was formed, and then we came together to realise that this was actually a pattern and a big trend. I’ve heard the most devastating stories from people no longer being able to work, they’re having to close their business, they’re in debt, people haven’t been able to follow through on their mortgage applications. People have lost their homes and their lives are being derailed in every sense, whether that’s emotionally, financially and physically.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You mentioned unofficial cuts before.

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, at the Labour Party Conference disability minister Stephen Timms admitted signing off on an order that would allow the Access to Work department to be more scrupulous in how they administer the award. And we can correlate that since that was signed off all of these widespread cuts, changes have been happening. So, what’s been quite frustrating for us as a collective is that in every right of reply the DWP has said there has been no policy change, everything’s the same, we’re just applying everything with more scrutiny and with more rigour. But clearly something has changed and it’s resulted in disabled people falling out of work when the government say it’s their key priority to get more disabled people in work. Ultimately the government have a solution here: they can either spend money on helping disabled people stay in work or they will have to spend money on paying people benefits. I know if I was a minister which one I’d want to choice.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And there was a consultation of the future of Access to Work, and we’ve been waiting on the results of that since June. What are you hoping that we get out of that consultation?

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If I’m being honest I’m a bit disappointed with the consultation. It was within a consultation about welfare benefits, and Access to Work isn’t a welfare benefit. There were only five questions about Access to Work and they were all around how can we get employers to do more. So, I just feel like the questions weren’t quite fit for purpose, what information we need and want for meaningful reform as opposed to what the DWP wants to happen, and yeah, I’m not holding my breath on that.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One of the things is that the government has established this collaborative committee. What’s been your experiences of that? And has there been any engagement with you as the Access to Work Collective?

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Unfortunately there hasn’t, and I feel like it’s been a real missed opportunity. We’re the only group that exists that represents so many stakeholders of Access to Work and all of the stakeholders of Access to Work. And during Labour’s election period they promised us transparency, they promised us accountability. The people that were on that consideration committee had to sign NDAs. We don’t recognise that as being transparent or being accountable if decisions that are being made about the lives of disabled people are behind closed doors and behind NDAs.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And your group sent this letter to the Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer. What does your letter say and what would you like him to do?

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We want recognition and validation of what’s actually happening. Disabled people are likening this crisis to the Post Office scandal. This is affecting thousands of people, not just disabled people but also suppliers and employers. So, our asks are really clear: we’re asking the government to stop all planned and unofficial cuts to Access to Work budgets and services; we want them to take immediate action to clear the backlog and to fast track urgent cases; and we want a fully codesigned overhaul of Access to Work with all key stakeholders at the heart of that.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We asked the government to respond and this is a statement we’ve just received from the Department of Work and Pensions:

The minister for social security and disability, Sir Stephen Timms, MP said, ‘Access to Work supports thousands of sick or disabled people to start or stay in work, but the scheme we inherited is failing employees and employers. That’s why we’re working with disabled people and their organisations to improve the scheme, ensuring people have the support, skills and opportunities to move into good secure jobs as part of our plan for change’. Shani, what do you think about that?

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re in total agreement that we want reform of Access to Work. I think personally that Stephen Timms needs to rebuild his trust with the disabled community, especially as he’ll be overseeing really key reviews. But we’re on the same page in terms of the fact that we want reform; we just don’t want it behind closed doors. We want accountability and transparency at the heart of it all.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, on a related note over the last couple of weeks we’ve heard that job coaches could be situated within GP surgeries to try and support people back into work. We had a voice note in from Simon who founded an app called Snowball which lists accessible Job Centres:

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Instead of chasing disabled people to the doctors surgeries the government should make Job Centres more accessible. Disabled people don’t need to be cornered off in GP waiting rooms. They want proper care and proper assessments from their doctors. They don’t want to feel ill and then talk about their career opportunities, which there aren’t many around if you’ve got a disability.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Shani, what do you and the collective think to that?

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If people who are sick or disabled they deserve dignity, not pressure kind of disguised as support. I think all the emphasis is kind of in the wrong place. There’s no point in demonising disabled people when there’s not many accessible jobs for them to go in to.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dr Shani Dhanda, thank you so much for talking to us. And I’m sure it’s an issue that we’re going to be coming back to in the coming weeks and months. Thanks a lot.

SHANI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ website.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Last week when she was here Emma Tracey had the opportunity to sit down with comedian, Chris McCausland. He’s just brought out a book in time for Christmas. Here’s Emma:

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The last time I spoke to this week’s guest he had just won Strictly Come Dancing, and since he’s embarked on a mammoth tour and written a book about his life. Keep Laughing has just hit the shops, and its author, comedian Chris McCausland, is here to tell me all about it. Hi, Chris.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How are you doing, Em?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m all right, thank you. You’ve written a book and did 170,000 date tour.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I wrote the book while I was on tour.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How could you? There were three shows a day sometimes!

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was insane. It was so consuming. I bought a beanbag tray and I’d sit with it on my knee in the car and I’d write when we were on the motorways, and I’d write when we were travelling to the shows, I’d write when I was in between shows if I had more than one a day, I’d write in the dressing room before shows, on single show days I’d write in the hotel room.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You had a very short time to write it.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I saw somebody, like a friend of mine who’s a comic, I saw them put a message out saying about that they’d written a book themselves that was autobiographical and they said, oh they’ve toiled over it for the last 18 months. And I was like, 18 months! [Laughter]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you didn’t have any ghostwriters then?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, nothing. I just wrote the whole thing myself. Do you know what, it needed doing in that time. I don’t say it needed doing like it…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It needed to be out for this year’s Strictly to capitalise on your amazing win?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s be honest, right, a book can be good but a book is only as successful in terms of what it sells and its reach. Penguin obviously were willing to promote this book because it was still fresh in people’s minds. So, if I get it done now it has a better chance of being successful. But also if I write it now I am so much more open and willing to share now on the back of Strictly than I was a year ago and that I might be in a year’s time [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why is that?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve always been very open about the funny embarrassing things that happen when you’re blind. There’s so many anecdotes, there’s so many stories, you’ve got to be able to laugh at it, haven’t you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve always been very closed off and personal about the actual experience of losing your sight in an emotional sense or letting people see the vulnerability or some of the shame, that side of it, because you want to present a capable front to people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think Strictly on a very basic level it poked me with a stick until I cried on the telly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it made me realise the value in people seeing that vulnerability, the struggle to achieve something. The messages that me and Di got really reflected that and really made me realise that this simple dancing show and what we’re doing is connecting with people in ways that I didn’t see possible, you know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Because I’ve been trying to get you to talk about losing your sight for 20 years and every time I’ve asked you about it you’ve sort of not…you know, you’ve gone the funny end.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, go for the joke and be the comedian.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, go for the joke.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I think a year ago if I’d tried to write this book…well, to be honest a couple of years ago I did start trying to write some sections. Somebody said, have you ever thought of writing one, and I started writing a couple of chapters and I was like, who wants to read this. I was trying to write standup in a book, you know what I mean, it just…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Whereas this is a real story. I could really feel where you lived and who you were with, your parents, your nan, your friends. You’ve really given a really strong insight into your life all the way through. But I think the losing sight thing is really, really interesting for me to read your account of that as someone who’s never had sight and as someone who’s known lots of people who have lost their sight over time. But it's not what we talk about over dinner and stuff very often.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s so personal to everybody that it’s so different your experience, isn’t it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it is only my experience, and I’m sure there’ll be some people out there that can relate to it or relate to part of it, and there’ll be some people who go, that’s nothing like what I experienced.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You mentioned shame, what were you referring to there?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I use the word normal in this book a lot: my pursuit of normal, my desire to be normal. And I’m not saying it from the point of view now of me as a 48 year-old guy I don’t see blind people as normal. But certainly from the point of being a kid and being a teenager and having a very, very normal life growing up on the streets of Liverpool with the sight that I had I felt different. I think a really good expression that is used a lot at the minute is masking, and it’s often used for describing like masking autism and things like that to try and fit in with the environment around you. And I think I did a lot in terms of I tried to hide my disability and I tried to pretend I could see more than I could because you want to fit in more and stand out less, and you don’t want people to see you as being incapable.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s really interesting because you have…

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I wouldn’t have talked about that a year ago! [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …yeah, but you have a blind mum, which you mention in the book.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You have a blind mum, you have a visually impaired sister, you had a blind nan. Do you think it was different being a man? They seemed, from the book anyway, to be getting on fairly well. I’m sure they had their own journeys.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, with my sight condition it actually deteriorates twice as fast roughly with men than women. So, my mum was working in a pub when she was 25 and I was completely blind. My sister’s sight in her early 40s is kind of where mine was in my very early 20s.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it’s a different reference.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. But also blindness was always very normal within the family, and it was always very normal within education. But when I was away from that and just out in the wild as a kid in Liverpool it was always the thing that made me different.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The very first bit of the book made me nearly spit out my tea and laugh out loud in the open plan office. I don’t know if you can remember or guess what it is? But remembering that I’m blind and I was reading it, as I read most of my books through audiobook, what do you think I’m talking about?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The opening part of the book?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Basically you said, ‘Introduction…’

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah [laughter], well I called it, the thing is none of this is in the actual written book…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh brilliant, I love a bit of extra on the audiobook.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s called a foreword I believe, but I’d spent the whole of the draft process calling it a forward, like the opposite of backward. And it wasn’t until the final draft that I realised that it was foreword. And then when I got the final version back they’d changed it to introduction, and I’m like what’s the difference between an introduction. And so I just thought well, I’ll get this off my chest before we started [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think we do need to explain so we don’t look very silly. But it’s hard to know all of the spellings of all of the things when you can’t see.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re not looking at words all the time. I can read braille, but there’s not braille everywhere so I’m not seeing braille.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, you’re just taking the sounds of the word in foreword. I just thought they were saying forward because it comes at the beginning and looks forward.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, me too. You read the book yourself, it’s a long book, you don’t read braille, how did you read your own audiobook?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý AI.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, only joking. We knew it would be better if it was me reading it. I didn’t really want anybody else reading it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It would have been really weird if someone else read it.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, but how does a blind guy read the book if he can’t read the book and doesn’t read braille? And I say in the book that I’ve learnt enough of it to play Uno with my daughter, so I know the letters and I can kind of figure that out when it’s a couple of things. But I can’t read it. So, when we say, how does a blind person read the book out loud, the caveat is that there are some blind people out there that can do that with braille and do it very proficiently. It’s never something I’d be able to do, even with years under my belt.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what did you do?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, if I’m on the radio and I’ve got a bit of script I need to read I use the screen reader, the talking bit on the computer, I use a Mac, voiceover and just catering through my document I can navigate that document and it reads it out in my ear. I have to have it faster than I’m talking so that I can get to the end of the line reading in my ear and still have words left to say while I get down onto the next line to begin the next line. And I’m used to doing that with paragraphs and stuff and little bits of script and things like that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, little bits of script, exactly, I can do it with a little bit of script, but not the whole book.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the thing was can we do 122,000 words like that. And the answer is yes, if you’ve got the right team around you. And so we took five days for 122,000 words.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Only five days?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Five days. And that’s five days from 10am till 4pm.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really impressive.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so it took 30 hours of studio time to do a ten-hour book really.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really impressive. How long do normal people take?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t think we were really off where a new audiobook reader would be. This is the feedback I got from the producer is that, yes I made more mistakes along the way, and a lot of them were down to the fact that I’d kind of just get my rhythm off, or I’d run out of words or I’d end up with too much of a backlog to get out my mouth. But if I did make a mistake I could pick up in the same intonation. And he said a lot of people who are quite new at audiobooks they have to get them back in because all the bits that they edit they don’t follow because they’ve started in a flat tone after they finished.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think we listen to ourselves more – listen to ourselves more – but I think it is just a listening thing.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I can do that as well, and I think just your whole thing is making it sound right, and you know what sounds right.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And authentic and being a bit anal about it all working and sounding good.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can we talk about being a blind person with ADHD because you said something interesting in the book about that? So, you had a diagnosis as an adult.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was diagnosed about ten years ago, late 30s. I’d always struggled in ways that I didn’t really understand I suppose. I always blamed myself and I always thought I was a procrastinator and I couldn’t control my own mind, and it was because of effort or laziness or just an inability to focus. And I know all this sounds like it’s obviously ADHD or obviously a neurodiversity, but I didn’t even know ten years ago that adults could have ADHD. And then I watched this documentary about it and I saw these adults talking about the issues they have with their focus and attention and impulsivity, and I was like that’s me. I had spent so long trying to fix the problems I have in the wrong way. And I say in the book, if you go over my Audible library all my audiobooks over the six-year period before that there’s so many self-help books, there’s so many books about how to manage your time, how to be productive, how to be creative, and none of them worked for me. And I’d find them motivational while I was reading them, and then it would all just go out the window. And I always thought I was broken in a way that I needed to fix but couldn’t fix. And you’d think oh, you’re so useless, why can’t you just be like everybody else, and you’d kind of beat yourself up about it a lot. And then I got a diagnosis, I went and saw the doctor and went, can you see if this is what I’ve got, and they did all of the stuff, and they even talked to my mum. And this was the NHS as well, this wasn’t a private thing.Ìý

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You got in before the rush.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, before the tidal wave. And he went, ‘Oh god yeah, you are textbook ADHD in so many ways’ [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, how did having the diagnosis change things?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was the understanding of what my mind is and what my brain is was the biggest solution because it stops me blaming myself for things.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not your fault.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And once you understand yourself you can be kinder to yourself and you can work around your shortcomings.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But thinking about the timeline, you got the diagnosis 2015, 2016, you started becoming very successful straight after that.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve made the most of every opportunity that’s come along the way, and I’ve put everything into making the most of those opportunities. And I’ve only been able to do that as well as I have probably because I’ve been kinder to myself, probably because I’ve had a better understanding of my own mind in the way I operate and the way I work better. And also because I had an understanding of my relationship to alcohol as well. I think alcohol, especially when you’ve maybe got a neurodiversity or ADHD it’s a way of numbing the onslaught of thoughts and busyness in a way. But I stopped drinking as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Around the same time?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. And that was one of the biggest changes in so many ways.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And did anyone ask you to do it or did you just decide to do it?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I stopped drinking because I did Live at the Apollo and my mind was so hyperactive, it was the nerves of the opportunity that overwhelms me, and to do well it was just so much that I got so drunk on the back of it. And I was like wow, I could have blown every opportunity in one go there as well as making them, so I thought I need to knock it on the head and just focus on work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Well, you’ve definitely focused on work that’s for sure.Ìý When you won Strictly last year there were a lot of articles saying a lot of big things about you, that you’re going to do Saturday night shows like Michael McIntrye etc. etc. You had this tour to do this year and this book to write, but what’s coming up?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve got a show that we’re waiting to hear back from the ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½ if they want to commission it for a series.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What can you tell us about it?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a gameshow and I’ll be hosting it. It’s called The Easiest Quiz Show in the World. We’ve done a studio pilot, we did it with an audience, we got members of the public are in. All the questions are easy but they don’t get long to answer them and they say mad things. But again I hosted all of that, running all the questions off a Mac. You can’t tell I’m doing it on the telly; the Mac’s under…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All the camera angles.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, the Mac’s behind the podium; I’m just going through all the questions on the Mac. We have it wirelessly linked into my ear, I have the gallery in my ear and I’ve got all the people to talk to on the stage, so it turns my brain inside out a little bit. But hopefully that might be the Saturday evening thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s exciting.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I think it may be the first blind person to have hosted something like that really.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s wonderful. That’s really fantastic. And as a fellow blind person I just always wish you the absolute best and I’m absolutely in your corner always.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh mate, thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Shouting about what you do, and so are we all. So, thank you so much for keeping it lit as we’d say in Ireland, for keeping it going and doing all the things. I’m very excited to see your quiz show when it comes out. I hope it’s accessible?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Completely accessible. And that’s the thing, it has to be accessible for me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs].

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s no good it not being accessible, I won’t know what’s going on [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Chris McCausland, thank you very much.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cheers mate.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s our show. Thanks for listening. I’ve been Paul Carter. Get in touch, email accessall@bbc.co.uk or find us on the socials @ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½AccessAll. Subscribe, we’re here for you. Access All will be back next Wednesday. Thanks a lot, goodbye.Ìý

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