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Towards the end of the 80s there were more changes at TOTP and the Radio 1 DJs were superseded or mixed in with other people. What were your feelings about that at the time?
 "I thought it was very strange when they started moving Radio 1 people off TOTP because they were familiar faces, familiar voices. During the '80s we used to hit nearly 14 million [viewers] which is pretty good and then suddenly at the end of the '80s they started saying 'why don’t we be a bit more street, a bit more cred and get some other people in?'. The first time I realised it was probably all over for the Radio 1 DJs was when they got a window cleaner in to do the programme one week. He’d won some competition and they thought 'Great! Let’s get the window cleaner in because people will identify with a window cleaner!' which of course they didn’t."
This marked the beginning of a slide for TOTP in terms of its credibility. Was that a turning point?
"Yes. I’m not sure whether they lost the credibility at that time, they certainly lost ratings which was probably more important because now it’s probably perceived as being cred. But the ratings of 4 million probably says something about the durability of the acts, or lack of it, and the lack of good songs. People don’t see the same bands, they tune in and go 'who the hell’s that?' week after week and the songs aren’t as strong, songwriters have been phased out of the equation so people don’t buy that many records, the man in the street doesn’t care who wrote the song as long as it’s a good song."
What role did TOTP play in the whole music scene in the 80's?
"TOTP at that time was the
microcosm of everything else that was going on around it, the gold in the middle of the target. That was where everything gravitated to and if you got gold, you got TOTP you almost certainly had a hit record. You’d get a big play on Radio 1 which had big audiences then you’d go to Saturday morning television and say "there’s this great band, let’s get them on Saturday morning TV" then the following week, well the record's moving now let’s get them on TOTP and then let’s have them on 'Pop Quiz', so their exposure was phenomenal. You got 10 or 12 million on Radio 1, 14 million on TOTP, 8 or 9 million on 'Saturday Superstore', 10 million on 'Pop Quiz' - a massive audience of people. Everyone knew who they were and everyone recognised them. Now, they don’t recognise artists that much, apart from the big ones."
Did the bands misbehave?
"I’m sure that went on. I suppose with the advent of the punk era, bands took on an attitude more than artists before. The other artists were pleased to be on there, "thanks for having us on, we’d love to come on again soon", and all the rest of it. But with the whole punk thing, the anarchic thing, it was "we don’t care whether we’re on at all" , as in who said they’d never, ever play TOTP. So I think it was a new, anarchic attitude, they came on and felt they had to be a bit sparky. Certainly some bands did, and I could probably name a dozen or so that actually went "Don’t know why we’re here, don’t wanna be here". You accepted it as part of showbusiness, maybe the rock n rollers did the same thing, the arrogant slouching, "what am I doing here?", you know. The answer is you’re selling records because it’s the business you want to be in, otherwise you’d be doing something else."
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