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The
Fire Brigades' Union is calling for a 40% pay rise and have rejected
the 4% they have been offered.
As
the army and their Green Goddesses are mobilised, fears are growing
in Beds, Herts and Bucks that emergency cover may not be sufficient.
Should
this action be allowed? Do they deserve 40 per cent? What's the
answer? Have your say here.
Read
more about this story
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| Tony,
Hertford |
Friday
31 January, 2003 |
|
| Rob
(Saudi) The point I was trying to make is that FF's are paid
to be available and prepared for fire & rescue duties. The Armed
services are paid to be prepared in the event of war. Eileen
from Reading stated that "The armed forces face real life-threatening
dangers every day. Firemen don't. They're skills are needed
WHEN they are needed, but this is NOT 24hrs a day". FF's are
available 24x7 and could face dangers at any shout. I once attended
a "no persons reported" house fire which normally would be a
relatively "routine" shout. During the course of tackling the
blaze, we enterd a room containing 3 LPG cylinders. The street
had to be evacuated while we removed the hot cylinders to a
make shift cooling pool. They are effectivly a UXB waiting to
happen. Generally a soldier, mariner or airman does not face
any "real" danger unless they are in a war scenario. To answer
your question, I served at RAF Binbrook (you may be to young
to remember Binny)for 3 years where Lightnings from 5 & 11sqn
were on QRA, and 2 years at Lossie where 202sqn. I am happy
to say that I never had to go to war during my service and I
don't envy you one bit. I just hope you can be safe. |
| Don,
Bedford |
Friday
31 January, 2003 |
|
|
I would just like to add that although the firemen believe that
they have a strong case when they get the chance to speak they
should try to justify their actions with an argument stonger
than "who would you call if your house was on fire" or "would
you do this job for this money. I certainly have never accepted
a job without first knowing what the pay was and the likelyhood
of increases or promotions. The firemen made an informed choice
to do what they do, yes it can be life threatening but again
this was obvious before you do 4 years of training. |
| Johny,
Foulchester |
Friday,
31 January, 2003 |
|
|
Whether or not the 40% pay rise is justified or not Im not sure
but what people seem to forget is that a government can only
do so much and that holding the country to ransom until they
get what they want is not the answer! |
| Ian,
Bletchley |
Friday,
31 January, 2003 |
|
|
nobody believed or believe now that the firefighters would get
40% but as a starting point for discussion it was ok, 4% is
unlikely to settle the issue either. Until the government allows
the employers to get into real discussions with the FBU nothing
will chane no matter what is imposed. The FBU is more democratic
than the Parliamentary Labour Party as there are no whips in
the fire stations. I am not a firefighter or anything to do
with them but the need a fair offer and then they will discuss
anything else. |
| Anna
Miranda, Hertford |
Friday,
31 January, 2003 |
|
| I
kind of sympathised with the firefighters when they began striking
last year. However, my house backs onto the A414 in Hertford
and after days-worth of "supporters" tooting their horns (lorry's
with your airhorns this applies to you in particular) to support
them I now feel stressed to the max as I am being denied the
privilege of enjoying my home environment in peace. Many people
who live in quiet areas will say I asked for this buying a house
on the main road, but I should like to point out there is a
great difference in being able to get used to constant traffic
noise (which I have got used to, and no longer notice) and jumping
out of your skin every 15 seconds as some idiot sounds their
horn. (Oh, and I do have double glazing!) I am now at the point
where if I was brave enough (I;m not, cos they're all bigger
than me!) I should ask all the picketing firefighters for their
home addresses, so that when they are off shift I can drive
up and down outside their houses to "show my support". Yours
with frazzled nerves, |
| Sam,
MK |
Friday
31 January, 2003 |
|
| I
thought I would share with you how boring it is for anti Firefighter
people to keep bleating on about how they dont deserve 30k a
year just because someone else doesnt earn it. I can easily
earn that and I work in an office. I could get a warehouse job
and with my shift allowance (which incedentally FF dont get)
I could earn the same as a fully qualified FF. For goodness
sake, no one is suggesting 30k as a starting salary but it seems
perfectly reasonable to allow them to earn that during their
career. After all the Police can and so can some high grade
nurses. You people think you will never need their services
and I truly hope you dont, BUT I guarantee the day you do you
will beleive that they are worth every penny and more. Forgive
me but Im a little bit resentful that my husband might not come
home one day because he has risked his life for the sake of
someone who has NO appreciation of him and his colleagues. You'll
all be whinging when you dial 999 and hear a recorded voice
saying. Please select from the following options in order for
us to deal with your call more effciently. If you have a house
fire, please press 1. Please use your key pad to enter the number
of people currently trapped. etc Its NOT a business and shouldnt
be run as such and by the time some of you people realise that
you will probably have very little fireservice left to moan
about. |
| Rob,
Saudi |
Friday,
31 January, 2003 |
|
| Tony
(Hertford), did you ever work at a station supporting search
& rescue? Is this preparing for war? Did you serve at a station
supporting Quick Reaction Alert? You must have served in the
Falklands, Balkans, Middle East, or another operational theatre.
If so, did you talk to any of the technicians who work up to
18 hour shifts to get aircraft into the air, as I frequently
am now? Even when "preparing for war" in the UK I work 10-12
hours a day, 5-6 days a week constantly maintaining aircraft
for the training role. The Aircrew may be training, but I am
doing a full time job. Graham (Aylesbury) has hit the nail on
the head, if we don't like our jobs then leave for a better
one. I would. |
| George
Drewett, MK |
Friday
31 January, 2003 |
|
|
I just don't see the fire service as value for money. With salary
of £22K, 4 men needed to fill one seat on an appliance and 6
men to an appliance it costs £600K to keep one appliance manned,
with a minimum of 2 appliances per station we are talking about
well over a million pounda a year for equipment that is used
only 10% of the time. That money would pay for a lot of smoke
detectors and other safety devices in the area covered by one
small fire station Lets be clear the FBU have 2 negotiating
pre-conditions, large pay rise and no job loses. I call that
greed. |
| Peter,
Hemel Hempstead |
Friday
31 January, 2003 |
|
| Nigel
After all that has been said on this web site I have never before
come across such a disgraceful statement calling Firefighters
Mercenaries. You are are DISGRACE to humanity and all that you
stand for. |
| Pete,
Northolt |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| I
wonder what the average fireman's income is INCLUDING their
2nd jobs? 2 days/2nights shift patterns that allow you to fit
7 working days into 5 are not the norm in industry as far as
I know. No wonder they are fighting to avoid the modernisation
that would put an end to this crazy arrangement. It would probably
take a huge pay rise to compensate for the loss of the 2nd jobs!
|
| Roger,
Luton |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
|
Has it occurred to anyone that while the firefighters are able
to strike, other serivces such as the police are unable to do
so. Imagine what would happen if the police decide they wanted
a huge pay rise and chose to strike. The problem with working
in any "vocational" area such as the fire service, nursing or
the police, is that they never are regarded as jobs where you
make lots of money. I agree pay should be better. However, if
high pay is your goal, rather than the welfare of society, then
look elsewhere. However, it was foolhardy of the FBU to even
suggest such a high figure and not accept any changes to the
operation of the service. You would have to be STUPID to expect
that to be taken on without a struggle. |
| L
Chandler, Luton |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| What's
happened to arbitration? It's cost the Government £70 million,
this can't be justified - this strike is becoming another Millenium
Dome. I support the firefighters because they are standing up
for everyone who is downtrodden by their Employers. This country
is fast becoming a Dictorship. |
| Graham,
Aylesbury |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| If
being a fireman is so badly paid get another job. |
| Tony,
Hertford |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| Eileen,
Barnet: How do the armed forces face danger everyday?. I have
heard a lot of people bleating about how much time the fire
fighters spend NOT attending fires, but still getting paid.
The armed forces spend more time preparing for war than they
do fighting in one. So should we not apply the same modernisation
principles to them?. I spent 9 years as an RAF firefighter and
now I'm a firefighter in the LFB. I have been in more life threatening
situations since joining the LFB than I ever did in the RAF.
|
| Steve,
Leighton Buzzard |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| there
is a lot of windbags on this column explaining the "ins and
outs" of the firemans lot. what it boils down 2 is their pay
claim was always a joke from the start. this is the fault of
their leadership,who in my opinion seem 2 b living in "pantoland".
get real u firefighters, u do a good job,have a lot of "spare
time",r paid reasonably well but probably deservs more than
4% u won"t win this dispute,u r losing public support daily,get
back 2 work and accept a reasonable pay offer |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| S
Carpenter: For the sake of fairness, I've got to point out that
although the firefighters do spend quite a bit of their duty
time sitting around (some have been honest enough to admit it),
that's the only way the system can work. It would be a bit unrealistic
for the Council to employ an arsonist to fill in for slack times.
We can be jealous that the firefighters have a predominantly
inactive job (thankfully) and that they have a lot more time
off than the rest of us. What the firefighters don't seem willing
to admit to is that this is an advantage of the job, one which
a lot of people would actually take a drop in pay to be able
to do. Nor do they mention what they will do when they retire
at 50 on (as they hope) £20k. Perhaps do their current part
time jobs full time and have an income of £50k+? If Jim of Herts
mentions this to his mortgage broker, he should have no problem
getting his 5-bedroom, twin garage semi. |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| Peter,
Hemel: Do the firefighters claim that part of the reason they
are on strike is now because of government proposals that they
perceive will endanger life? Is it not also the case that lives
are endangered by the firefighters being on strike? You say
that I am wrong (again???) because I have the common sense to
realise that letting people die because you want to save them
is a totally illogical concept. There is only one reason why
you are on strike - MONEY - and the longer the strike goes on,
the more people will realise that you don't care about how many
people get killed or injured, so long as you get a better lifestyle
than your neighbour. You can return the argument, saying that
it's the government's fault, but while you are on strike, you
are no better than they are. You may have joined the fire service
as a vocation, but it appears now that firefighters have become
mercenaries. |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| Barbara,
Hemel: Acknowledged that I got the dates wrong - currently working
18 hours per day (and no, I don't get midweek overtime) so when
the clock slips past midnight, I lose track of the day. The
reason I post separate messages is for the sake of clarity.
3 Counties remove paragraph breaks with the result that one
issue runs into another. If you have an answer about who is
going to make up the shortfall in the pensions, I'd like to
know. Or is it that this will be an extra burden on the Council
Tax payers, many of whom earn a damn sight less than the firefighters
currently do? |
| Peter,
Hemel Hempstead |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
| Prescott...oh
my what have you done?? 1st..You Got your grubby mits in the
till for your 40%. Then stopped everyone else. 2nd..You Will
not negotiate with the FBU, except to re-iterate your DEMANDS
under Bain. 3rd.. You have stopped 3 pay offers, which would
have stopped the strikes. 4th..On TV states, that he would bring
about legislation to force the issue on pay.terms and conditions.
This proves that he has no intention of resolving the issue.
5th..Now because the TUC are involved, and pay the majority
of the labour party funds has decided that he has not said any
such thing to do with bringing about legislation. This lunatic
Government dont know what to do next .They have lied. They have
tried deformation of character. They have played the fear key
and still the idiots at Parliament cant agree on how or when
to sort this out. As prescott said this should concentrate their
minds on settling this dispute, The infamous 5, the TUC and
the FBU |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Thursday
30 January, 2003 |
|
|
John Smythe: OK,good point though I'm sure a public-spirited
service provider has the ability to assign priority to designated
phone numbers. Has anybody asked them? I don't expect a reply
to this as it is probably out of your sphere, but you may wish
to ask the question further up the chain. |
| Peter,
Hemel Hempstead |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| Maureen
I hope you have read all the messages and not just jumped on
the Prescott bandwagon. You`re right MY family is exempt are
they, dont think so. 55.000 Firefighters leave no Fire Service
think of how much that would cost. Prescott has claimed that
it has cost £100m so far. That is subtantially more than a full
Fire Service. Lee Cheap up there aint it, try down here you
will get a swift shock with your 14k. S Carpenter 30k Pleasant
thought I`d like to find out. Mrs Carpenter NHS staff should
stand up and be counted and kick some butt, as I have said several
times. Some messages advocate they knew the hours and wages
before they joined so tough.. John NY Some figures wrong bud
just like the treasurer your figures are 20k his was 20 Billion.
So you have retired good luck to you have a great life. I know
that its cheaper cleaner and all round better out there. So
i! f its that good here why dont you come back. NO Dont blame
you, but us over here are left with this dump. One good lottery
win and I will leave, thanks to Blair. Nigel Got it wrong again,
as usual. This dispute started as as wage demand, however since
then Prescott and his ilk have thrown all sorts into the ring.
16% this year would have probably stopped the strikes but this
now also includes the proposed cuts as you rightly said is not
a logical development. So now we are out to save the Service
as well. Are you going to pay for the phones, Bains cuts certainly
wont. Firefighters can go onto 55yrs old but on reaching 52
yrs old a strange thing happens our pension starts going down.
Even you would leave the job to save your pension. Pensions
are strange aint they. |
| Michelle,
Beds |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| I
am a nurse, and I also feel that we are underpaid and undervalued.
However,imagine the chaos if all nurses decided to strike! As
nurses are the backbone of the NHS , hospitals, accident and
emergency departments, nursing homes, District nursing services
, and GP surgeries etc would all be forced to close!If nurses
want to publically protest about low wages etc,we do so in our
lunch hours and/or our own time,and then return to our jobs
of caring for patients. |
| Tom
Smith, Helston |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| I
fink that thay are in there rights for what they are asking
for and suport them. But at the same time they will have to
go back if they are needed to in a majer fire or somthink lick
that. |
| Barbara,
Hemel Hempstead |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| Nigel
you really should get your facts right before you air your views
this current strike ends 9.00am thursday. Also to say that people
should not press the send this button because their comments
you do not understand, is that why you have to send so many
at a time because you dont understand yourself ? ( 5 today alone
) In one sentance you preach this is about pay then you start
saying the firefighters to whom you do not like are going to
start MOANING about their shortfall in their pension in the
next strike, you should look at your comments first.Also how
many times do you have to be told the fire equipment Does not
belong to the firefighters you need to speak to Mr prescott
about that. John (short title) So you got away from this hell
hole called England You hit the nail on the head when you said
about our train service: MODERNISATION we call it here. Gun
crime that also is what we call MODERNISATION you know lack
of police. Dont forget if you ever want to come back here there
is always plenty of money in the pot from Mr Blair to help sort
your life out remember England has a large open heart for ex
-pats and any one else who needs to come here He just does not
know how to help our people like pensioners,public sector workers
or homeless people .So you can now put your feet up because
you have worked hard ? well don`t you think other people do?
Times are hard for a lot of people to. And yes they do sleep
well at night when they are at home, not when they are at work. |
| Maureen,
Luton |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| I
do not believe this topic is still an issue - They are plenty
of unemployed people out there looking for jobs. If the fire-fighters
are not happy with their pay they should look for employment
somewhere else. If a person is not happy within their working
environment LEAVE / MOVE ON / GET A LIFE – common sense really!
Why put others at risk due to greed. |
| Jim,
Herts |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| Lee,
you are from Bradford. Try and buy a house down here on 14K,
You could try and buy a house down here on 22.5K except you
would not get a mortgage as the average house price is over
200K |
| Lee,
Bradford |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
|
I have been trying to get into the fire service for a number
of years now without much luck not because i am not up to the
job but because there are so many people who apply. The reasons
for me joining and many people i know are 1.been a part of something
that helps and saves lives 2.the hours 4 days on and 3 off wouldn`t
we all like this 3.the pay to start off at 16k a year is pretty
good going i know that 20k-22k after 5 years isn`t great but
compared with a lot of other jobs out there its pretty good
going. I earn 14k now and own my own house have 1 kid a new
car and i manage o.k so whats the problem with these firefighters
i think they're just been greedy. |
| S
Carpenter, Herts |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| Minimum
wage of 30k....One wonders how much they actually will be taking
home? I also wonder how much of their time is spent sat around?
|
| Mrs
Carpenter, Hemel Hempstead |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| My
honest opinion of the fire fighters strike is that they are
being greedy. They do not work as long hours as our NHS hospital
staff do. Fire fighting is a vocation and a job you take pride
in.I did not realise it was done just for the money. I hope
they can sleep well at night. |
| John
(Short Title), New Rochelle, New York, USA. |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| To
Peter, Hemel Hempsted. You ask what am I doing in America? I
live here Peter, and have done so since 1973; it is my home.
I have a very nice house on a beautiful tree lined avenue. I
am retired now, but up to three years ago I worked for my living,
and worked hard. Yes I have earned good money, but we do earn
more over here, and enjoy a better standard of living than you
do in the UK. Our trains run on time, and they are clean and
no smoking. Generally people here do not use shop doorways as
a urinal, and despite what you may imagine about crime here,
we have much less gun crime in NY than in many major cities
and towns in England Peter. I retired from my job as a corporate
pilot, and am enjoying the fruits of my labour Peter. It was
not always so I can assure you, and I spent many years as a
small commuter airline pilot, working sixty hours a week for
low money in order to get enough to pay for the upgrade courses
required by the FAA in order that I could get my Jet Ratings
certificates. I always was prepared to work hard Peter, and
I did. Times were hard, and there were days when I could be
in Philadelphia, or Baltimore/Washington airport waiting to
board passengers, when I had barely enough money on me to buy
a sandwich for my lunch. So please no more lectures from any
of you about how you cannot manage on what you make. I know
hard times folks, been there and done that. No matter what the
firefighters use as an excuse, I still maintain that they have
betrayed the British public. It is easy to blame Blair, and
even though I detest his innards, he would be well advised to
FIRE YOU ALL! |
| John
Smythe, UK |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| John
(Ex of Kent Now of New Rochelle, New York in the USA) Title
gets longer every time. Has the needle got stuck on your record
player, because you seem to send the same message each time.
If you had read the message I put on last year you will see
that the £22,491 is the salary after 15 years service and that
was compared to a New York City Firefighter with 5 years service
who earns $59,717, and this was before their last pay award.
I'm sure if any of the NYC Firefighters could see what you are
posting on this message page they would be disgusted. All of
the Salaries are available for all to see on the FBU website
and the FDNY website. Nigel, We do have mobile phones on the
appliances as well as radios but what happens when the we get
the message "The Network is Busy, Please Try Later". this frequently
happens especially when there is a major accident or hold up
on a nearby motorway. |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| The
FBU is screaming about unfairness but doesn't seem to care about
it's own members. With the strike system of 48 hours off, 24
hours on, then 48 hours off, one watch loses out on 3 shifts'
pay, two watches lose out on 2 shifts' pay while the fourth
watch loses out to the tune of just one shift. Evidently this
is a psychological ploy to ensure that the firefighters won't
break ranks before another three similar series of strikes to
keep the pay lost equal. |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
| This
strike ends at 09:00 on Friday, the next starts at 09:00 on
Saturday. Would it be so surprising for the firefighters to
find that the Station doors are locked on Friday morning? |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
|
This
strike started off as an unrealistic demand for 40%. Even
several of the firefighters who subscribed to the early pages
of this debate admitted they were really looking for 15-20%.
Despite claims to the contrary, I maintain that the strike
is solely for more pay. The issues of cuts to the Fire Service
could be better aired with the firefighters back at work.
Claims that they are doing work which isn't part of their
job descriptions (giving fire safety lectures etc) could be
resolved by a simple "work to rule." Arguments about inadequate
equipment (radios etc) fall on deaf ears because this equipment
still works better when somebody is there to operate it. It
was agreed that an aerial platform would be made avaialable
to the Armed Services so that they would be better able to
save life. At the agreed handover time of 8:30, it was in
use. At 9:00, it was behind a picket line. It's time the FBU
realised that the Fire Stations and equipment are not their
personal property.
Something
which the firefighters keep missing from their responses is
the issue of their pension - currently, I believe, 2/3 of
their final salary, claimable from age 50. If their pay were
to rise by 40%, there would be a major shortfall in the pension
fund. Just where do they expect this extra money to come from?
Or is the next strike going to be because their pension has
been reduced below 2/3?
|
| Nigel,
Luton |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
|
Peter, Hemel: Please, calm down and re-read what you have written
before you click on the "send this" button. I've just read your
last two messages and don't understand them. When I see some
of the messages on this board, I also tend to let rip but then
delete the first, second and third versions before actually
submitting my response. One of your replies included a reference
to radios. I know they cost money, that's why I advocated the
use of mobile phones. Given the frequency of use, the line rental
and call charges for mobile phones would be considerably less
than the cost of replacing an entire radio system - and appliances
wouldn't have to be withdrawn from service to have new radios
fitted. |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Wednesday
29 January, 2003 |
|
|
Che: Just to set the record straight, one of the firefighters
who died in the last 12 months was a trainee and not on duty.
He responded in much the same way as many members of the public
would have had they also been faced with a burning building
with members of his family trapped inside. Yes, the guy had
plenty of bottle and deserves respect for his actions but his
actions were those of an ordinary bod and he shouldn't be used
as a pawn in a pay dispute. I prefer to honour him as a brave
member of the public. |
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