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The
Fire Brigades' Union is calling for a 40% pay rise and have rejected
the 4% they have been offered.
As
the army and their Green Goddesses are mobilised, fears are growing
in Beds, Herts and Bucks that emergency cover may not be sufficient.
Should
this action be allowed? Do they deserve 40 per cent? What's the
answer? Have your say here.
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| Che,
Stevenage |
Tuesday
4
February, 2003 |
|
|
i thought i would just comment on the governments concern for
the safety of their own troops. We had a old Hydraulic Platform
that was being sold on and re-chasised, however it has now been
commendeered for use by the armed services. I personnely have
no problem with them taking it or using it except for one thing.
It is now past its manufacturers safety certification and therefore
in the real world where health and safety laws apply it is dangerous.
But the army etc are actually exempt from health and safety
laws and are quite legally able to ignore good practice that
is standard in every other industry. Now i know that it has
not been re-certified because this process involves the manufacturer
taking it apart stripping all the paint from the entire device,
x-raying all the welds, replacing every hose, in particular
the hydraulic hoses rebuilding it and then rebodying it. All
at a very substantial cost. Do you even think that the army
have told the crew using it of this danger? you and i both know
they have not - do you condone this dangerous attitude of the
government? |
| Ross,
Wellingborough |
Tuesday
4
February, 2003 |
|
| The
Firemen should be treated the same as the Police, they should
be BANNED from striking, they should be done for corporate manslaughter
if any one dies as a result of their strikes, and as for the
Bedfordshire prats that carried on striking over the RAF wanting
to use a bit of their precious equipemnt, which they didn't
use anyway, as they didn't cross the picket line, any sympathy
I had evaporated then and there, they are beneath my contempt,
they are greedy, no one held a gun to their heads to make them
do the job, if they don't like it, get pout, or don't they like
the idea of doing a proper hard working job, instead of doing
two jobs? they earn as fireman £8,000 a week more than my man,
for the last 4 years he has received the great amount of 2%
rise each year, and he IS skilled and in an apprenticeship,
not 8 weeks training, his lasted 4 years, so pack up the b*t
and blackmail Communism is supposed to be dead, Uncle Jo (Stalin)
would be proud of you) in my opinion in todays climate you are
traitors to our country gentlemen. TRAITORS I say no more. |
| Che,
Stevenage |
Tuesday
4
February, 2003 |
|
| Nigel,
Initially this dispute was purely about an increase in pay as
simple as that. We (the firefighters) wanted an increase to
match the skill levels we have - not what we think we have,
the ones we do have - an indisputable fact because it came from
the Audit Commission. The skills that mean ANY Firefighter can
deal with ANY incident that arises, not the singular examples
you so often describe. We asked for £30 000 and we eventually
negotiated a deal of £25 000 with sensible modernisation. This
is all fact. However HM Government scuppered that deal, a deal
that was signed by the Employers as well as the FBU. The reason
they scuppered the deal was due to the interim cost of £100
million pound. Since then they have spent £90 Million Pound
on the armed forces etc, this sum is only the bill for the armed
forces, you can be sure it is far higher than this. The dispute
is now more than pay it is about cuts to the fire service and
the FBU trying to stop them. You've rea! d Bain there are some
good suggestions in there such as proper funding for Community
Fire Safety but, and this is a big but, there are ideas and
recommendations that are downright dangerous. For instance there
will be NO independent Authority that inspects the Fire Service
to ensure they are capable of meeting their operational commitments,
there will be no consultation of any kind should they wish to
close a Fire Station, they also wish to delay Fire Engines from
turning out to incidents at night when you are most likely to
die in a fire. This is why many Firefighters and Officers that
said they would not strike over pay are now on strike not because
like 'the rest of us' they are 'Greedy' but because like 'the
rest of us' they can see the disturbing future that Mr Bain
naively wants. We are Intelligent people with good knowledge
of the outcome of these proposals. It is interesting to note
that Mr Bain did not even consult the Fire Service Inspectorate
or even CACFOA (Chief! and Assistant Chief Fire Officers Association)
two organisations that actually know what they are talking about.
Why dont you answer this question - If the Bain recommendations
will produce an even more effective Fire Service why is the
Association of British Insurers so concerned about it? Saving
life is paramount but factories and offices destroyed by fire
has a severe effect on local communities and what you pay for
your goods that is indisputable fact as well. How can a Fire
Service with LESS Firefighters, LESS Fire Engines with LESS
Fire Stations be MORE effective when according to the Audit
Commission we are the MOST efficient public service already?
Quite simply and very honestly i know that people will lose
their lives directly from the implementation of Bain. That is
not me scaremongering that comes from my heart and experience
as a Firefighter, i might not know much about anything else
but being a Firefighter is something that i do know about. Do
you wish to see a proper Fire and Rescue Service that has the
resources to deal with ANY incident immeadiately? Do you think
a loss of 1/3 of the Fire Service can Achieve that with a less
skilled and poorly motivated work force? I do not. |
| Clive,
UK |
Tuesday
4
February, 2003 |
|
| I
think that "Nigel" is the English name for "NERO". I can just
see his headstone, " He Fiddled Whilst Luton Burnt" |
| Nigel,
Aylesbury |
Tuesday
4
February, 2003 |
|
|
I have read all the reports from Bain, Goverment, FBU, News,
comments etc and have formed an opinion that the Fire Service
see themselves as omnipotent!with "AG" playing the almighty.
I dont think there is anyone(including me) that would wish to
deny Firemen a pay rise which is fair and reasonable. There
are lots of other Public Sector workers that deserve a rise
as well !! Nurses,Teachers,Police Officers,Ambulance staff,Armed
Forces are a few that spring to mind. Workers, who work most
of the time, under tremendous pressure. Some who have had to
study hard, gaining Degrees, Diplomas. All have had to keep
constantly changing,adapting,improving,improvising,learning
etc. Some get a lot less than Firemen such as Health Care Assistants
in Mental Health,who have to learn lots of skills,work under
pressure,adapt constantly and work unsocial hours at any time
night or day according to the flexible shift rostering used
by health services. I have not seen any of them striking f!
or! a 40% pay rise which if they did get would be what a Trained
Firefighter gets now. Stop striking, carry on talking, think
and be reasonable and the majority of the Public will back you
! |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Tuesday
4
February, 2003 |
|
| Peter,
Hemel Hempstead: You ask a lot of questions to which I have
already given the answers, so forgive me if I don't answer all
of them. The Fire Authority GAVE permission. The Fire Station
(and FBU) knew this. The Armed Services arrived before 09:00
so that they SHOULD not have been faced with a picket line.
What was the problem with the firefighters parking the platform
OUTSIDE the picket line with the proviso that it would not be
driven away before 09:00? The answer that springs to mind is
that the firefighters WANT people to be killed while the Armed
Services are on duty so that the firefighters can turn round
and say "It wouldn't have happened if we'd been given 40%."
You may be a qualified trainer, but unless you are retired,
you have less experience than I in the actual use of the platform.
You are trying to kid people yet again that specialist knowledge
is required. The platforms you use are only suited for use on
roads - off road, they bog down. The course for the lorry-mounts
is the simplest for the very reasons you put forward - the hills
you encounter are minor and are taken up with the outriggers
with no special preparation. Your argument about camber is laughable.
And with regard to concern about surroundings, I might add that
the average labourer would be expected to operate the basket
within inches of glass facades (WITHOUT TOUCHING) while you
have no such considerations about damage. With regard to overloading,
surely you know that the baskets (of your machines) are rated
for three persons. Go over this and the built-in safety devices
stop it working long before it can overturn. If you are nervous
about your machines tipping, then you are probably of too nervous
a disposition to operate them. Perhaps a study of Applied Mathematics
would help, then you would appreciate that these machines have
a safety factor in the order of about 7 built in. I would also
suggest that you avoid lifts, as these have a safety factor
of about 2.5 and are therefore much more dodgy than aerial platforms.
If you want to impress me with your skills, talk about controlling
a hose. I've had a go and know how difficult it is. But then,
you probably realise that those who have never tried it won't
believe how difficult it is and besides, it hardly rates as
the same level of technology as something with levers and buttons. |
| Peter,
Hemel Hempstead |
Monday
3
ÌýFebruary,
2003
|
|
| Nigel
WRONG AGAIN How many times are you going to jump in with both
feet up to your neck, Eventually you will drown in ignorance
and stupidity. 1st 30k is the qualified rate of pay, not starting
rate. 2nd Whilst we are on strike WE DONT GET PAID, we get absolute
ZIP, ZILCH, NOTHING. People like you are the parasites of society
who suck something dry. To date all your statement/Comments
have been full of untruths and and half baked ideas either from
yourself or Bain. Need something to chew on, try this for size.
You have read, digested and swallowed the Bain review, hook
line and sinker. You have admitted not reading the pathfinder
report, as this obviously contradicts you ideas, thoughts and
the Bain review. Now read the Labour Research Council report
on the Bain review. (these are the people that said that MP`s
should get 40% along with the Fireservice) You wont like it
as the Bain review is totally ripped to shreds as a complete
load of old twaddle, and should be binned as garbage. NOT WHAT
YOU WANTED TO HEAR IS IT. |
| Peter,
Hemel Hempstead |
Monday
3
Februaryy, 2003 |
|
| Emma
Everyone should get a decent living wage, even you, and if the
Nurses should ever strike for a living wage I would be up the
front supporting them, Unlike some contributors to this site
who would call them greedy. Just think the Military could do
the job Couldn`t they!! |
| Barbara,
Hemel Hempstead |
Monday
3
Febraury, 2003 |
|
John
you are the one who started by saying how much a a better world
it is in America and England was not? What do you want the firefighters
to do other than strike to be listened to ? This Dispute did
not happen over night it has been going on for months and months
You must remember things about our goverment
1 remember the strikes back in the 70`s is what kept the Labour
party out of power for 18 years
2 they recieved their 40% pay rise at the begining of this dispute
3 They opened their mouth at the begining by saying there was
NO money in the pot for them, so now they look even bigger fools
by giving them any kind of rise.
4 not attending any meetings because it will be showing them
up (Lets hope todays meeting went well ) You must remember this
dispute is for the rest of the workers in this country who have
been put down by all our goverments over the years. As for saying
the firefighters have no support in this country I have been
to many fire stations and can say the support is very strong
from the public. |
| John(An
Englishman Abroad) New Rochelle (Queen City of the Long Island
Sound), NY, USA. |
Monday
3 February, 2003 |
|
| Barbara,
I really do not understand your sentiments. In one breath you
refer to England as a, and I quote "hellhole" unquote, and in
the next, quote" the most beautiful place in the world"unquote.
Seems to me that you are the one who needs to sort out their
sense of patriotism. As to saying that I resent others who are
trying to better their condition so that they too can retire,
I am afraid is nonsense Barbara. Let me assure you that the
future of you and your spouse will be determined by the actions
that you take, the "cause and effect" factor. If you want to
secure a brighter financial future, going on strike in the hope
that you will swell your bank balance by doing so is a pretty
lame avenue to take. If you both want improve your condition
to achieve your desires then MOVE ON and hit the bricks. Sitting
around on strike and moaning about the cruel world will not
help your condition one bit Barbara, and neither will waiting
for an unwilling government to answer your prayers work out
too well for you.Putting the lives of the British public at
risk is hardly the way to get much sympathy Barbara; just read
the many comments that appear here and you will see how little
support they have. |
| Barbara,
Hemel Hempstead |
Sunday
2 February, 2003 |
|
| John
(An Englishman abroad) I do not resent the fact that you are
putting your feet up, I am the first to say to any one who can
do as you are doing good luck as you don`t know what is around
the corner in life and if you can put your feet up financially
GO FOR IT. But what I do resent is people like you who resent
other people who are trying to do the same.You did not have
to say that Blair should sack firefighters For wanting a decent
wage, what you need to do is read ALL the comments on this site
and read the reasons for this strike. And I do not hate my country
I am very proud to be English living in the most beautiful place
in the world, We have spoken about living elsewhere in the world
my husband could have left the London fire brigade to work for
the new york fire service for diffrent reasons including financial
but we choose not to. We Choose to walk the pavement as you
put it so we can hopefully do as you are doing which is retire
from life and have some quality time to do things, just like
the next man wants to. |
| Peter,
Hemel Hempstead |
Sunday
2 February, 2003 |
|
| Nigel
Chew this over. The Fire Authority gave permission did they.
Question Who owns the Vehicles? The local Authority or private
lease company. Question Who would be operating the aerial appliance
Military or private? Question What would happen if whilst in
use it fell over, who pays?? Question What would happen between
08.30 & 09.00 should the appliance have been required? Question
Would the appliance have been bought back for use and who would
operate it? Question Knowing that the Local Authorities and
Cheif Offiers are finding ways of instigating the Bain review.
why did they say collect the appliance at 08.30? Just to cause
friction?. If permission was granted the appliance should have
been left outside. Question When would the appliance have been
returned ? or not? Question When the appliance was returned
if it were damaged or defective what or who would be held responsible?.
Your Technical Knowledge of the appliance and that of your informer
must b! e great, to come out with all that B......T is unbelievable.
Any Numbskull can park the appliance in a car park, put it and
down. Now start adding. Hills and Cambers, Trees, Lamposts,
Cables, Buildings, Narrow Roads, Rescues, Water Tower, Payloads,
Weak Structures, High Winds, Emergency Procedures, Night Time,
all in 1 1/2 hours, WRONG AGAIN. Get the true facts before you
just press send this. I am a Qualified Aerial Trainer and Examiner,
You are NOT. Health and Safety Laws are compulsory in the service,
outsiders pay lip service to the laws which is why they fall
over. John NY I am not suprised you dont want to come back,
in your position neither would I. Roger Walker Whether the Fire
Service get paid or not the Council Tax will rise. A previous
message Quote "A 55% increase over 3 years yet there was only
13% increase in actual costs, Why?. Rob Saudi The Fire Service
also have Mechanics and technicians that keep the appliances
operational ready for use, this allows f! or training to improve
our skills ready for the call as we are the appliance pilots.
TO ALL The Firefighters 40% payrise claim was due to a government
review, which was the same as the MP`s got, which we didn`t.
Had we asked for 4% we would have been given 2%. 40% would ultimately
not been on the cards but at least discussioins could have taken
place. Unfortunately the Government have got their heads stuck
so far up the IRAQI sand that they cant give up no matter what
comes. |
Ìý
| Emma,
Hemel Hempstead |
Sunday
2 February, 2003 |
|
| I
can understand that the fire brigade feel they deserve higher
pay when you see footballers earning so much but the fire fighters
must have known what they would be earning when they accepted
the job, so surely if they didnt feel they could cope on the
money they were being offered they simply wouldn't have taken
on the job. I know that the firefighters risk their lives for
us but they have all the protective kit they can which limits
the risk a bit. but surely everyone knows that there isnt enough
money in carework or public services at the active level, im
an 18 year old nursery nurse working full time on just over
£3000 /year. yet i do it because i love my job and it is helping
the parents of the children at my nursery. the firefighters
knew their wages when they accepted the job so putting lives
at risk so they can get more money seems like they shouldn't
be working in the care industry/public service industry full
stop, because most of us are working to mak! e ! other people's
lives easier and better, not about putting people out and putting
lives at risk. i also doubt that the firefighters would approve
if the nurses had gone on strike first, and one of them had
had an accident at home, or if shopworkers closed up for a week
and they couldnt buy food for their children or if the police
went on strike and their car got broken into, nuresry nurses
went on strike and there was no-one to look after the children
etc? You don't know what you've got til it's gone, lets not
start making everyone in britain think it a good idea to strike,
the country wouldn't last a day. TO THE FIREFIGHTERS: i really
understand that you want more money, but don't we all? can i
suggest that if money is the reason you are on strike, it maybe
isn't the right job sector for you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP
PUTTING MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY'S LIVES AT RISK AND ALSO YOUR
OWN FRIEND'S AND FAMILIES x x x x thanx for taking the time
to read this xxx |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Saturday
1 February, 2003 |
|
| Sam,
MK: The firefighters ARE talking about £30k as a starting salary,
or at least a salary which is available to a 21 year old. Their
pay structure, which doesn't involve annual increments, means
that there is no recognition of length of service (and hence
experience) unless they receive promotion to Leading Firefighter.
Beyond that, only a few can progress further because the vacancies
don't exist. I've no gripe with a firefighter finishing his
career on £30k, but starting it on £30k (when the cost to the
Council Tax Payer is £37k - Employers pension contributions
added in) is totally unreasonable. |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Saturday
1 February, 2003 |
|
|
Firefighters: Do Andy Gilchrist and other staff members of the
FBU donate their wages to the hardship fund on the days you
are on strike? Why aren't their positions filled by retired
firefighters who, because they receive a pension, would require
a lower salary from the FBU? This would reduce the level of
your subscription rates while ensuring that staffing is kept
"within the family." Of course, if you're happy with parasites.....
|
| Jason,
Leicester |
Saturday
1 February, 2003 |
|
|
I live on approx £14000 a year. This is not a bad wage and i
get by because i do not live beyond my means. I think the firemen
are being greedy. £20000 a year is an excellent wage compared
to what some people have to live on. If you dont like your job,
its simple, get another one. There will be plenty of people
to fill theirs. |
| Nigel,
Luton |
Saturday
1 February 2003 |
|
| The
Fire Authority gave permission for the Armed Services to take
an aerial platform to increase the chances of saving life during
the strike. The firefighters at Bedford wouldn't let them have
it at 08:30 "in case they needed it in the next half hour."
At 09:00, the platform was behind picket lines, the firefighters
knowing the Armed Services have orders not to cross picket lines.
Petty? wait for the rest... The FBU spokesman said that they
would have delivered it to the Armed Services, if they had asked.
BUT NOT BEFORE 09:00, because they may have needed it, and NOT
AFTER 09:00 because they were on strike. Then the Bedford firefighters
attend only 999 calls when the strike finishes "because of the
aerial plaform dispute." I try to be reserved but this particular
FBU rep should be strung up and the sheep who backed him should
be sacked and blacked from the job marke! t. The rep then went
on to say that the platform "is the single most technical piece
of equipment that the Fire Brigade use" and that it takes over
a week to train a very experienced firefighter how to use it.
Almost immediately, an aerial platform instructor came on air
and said that training on these machines takes about 1 1/2 hours
total. I can confirm this, these machines can be hired by the
public - they will get 10 minutes training from the delivery
driver. In the construction industry, because of Health and
Safety laws, operators have to attend a specific course - this
takes 1/2 day. Do you firefighters really want people to think
that you are so thick that it takes 14 times as long to train
you than a Kosovan building labourer who can't even translate
the instructions? I've had similar arguments raised with other
bits of the firefighter's kit. Don't you realise that there
is hardly a piece of equipment you use which is not also used
by labourers? Even BA equi! pment is used in confined space
working. Stop trying to kid the public that you've got to be
something special to be able to use your equipment. Your forte
should be that you are disciplined and public-spirited but we
are seeing precious little of either just at the moment. |
| John(An
Englishman Abroad), New Rochelle, (Forty Five Minutes from Broadway)
NY,USA. |
Saturday
1 February 2003 |
|
| To
Peter, and Barbara,(Hemel Hempsted) One, thank you Peter for
your well wishes, they are appreciated. Next, the one thing
that I find disturbing about both of your letters is that Peter
refers to England as " this dump"; and Barbara as "this hell
hole". How sad that is. I must address Barbara mainly, becuase
she seems to resent the fact that I have "put my feet up". Well
Barbara, I certainly have not. I am engaged in part time instruction
of students at a local flying school, and at times that can
be as dangerous as a firefighters job when ham handed students
do silly things in the air, and I have to take corrective action.
However Barbara, I did not "escape" from England. I saw an opportunity
and took it, even though it was not a sure thing. I took a big
leap Barbara. Even then, I had many years of struggle to attain
my goals, and eventually I did. No one ever said that it would
be easy, but you know Barbara and Peter, we make our own luck
in life, but you have to "pound the pavement" as they say over
here. Also Barbara, I do not need to return to England to get
"sorted out" to use your term. I have "sorted out" my own future,
and although I meet your standards i.e I am an ex Pat, and a
Senior Citizen, I have no desire to return to England, except
to visit family members from time to time. I still love England,
but I love my home America more. If England is a "dump" and
a "hell hole" my friends, then who has allowed it to become
so I wonder? Anyway, I wish you all well, and thank you ÃÛÑ¿´«Ã½
for allowing all of this to happen. |
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